Rankings quiz time!!

[Jonathan Cummings]

What golf course was once in the top 10 (!) on Gold Digest's top 100 list but as of ten years ago wasn't even in the top 100?

JC

[Mike_Sweeney]

Not sure if The Monster @ The Concord made Top 10, but it was up there ? Now gone.

Maybe PineTree, but it has bounced on and off Top 100 for a few years, so not sure if that counts.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Pine Tree it is Mike!

I just read a good article David Tepper recommended for me and was astounded by the fact that Pine Tree, a once top 10 course eventually fell off the GD top 100 list (it is back on in 2003 list).

Anyway, the bio on Joe Lee that David suggested is quite informative and well-written.

JC

www.tlgolf.com

[Jim_Kennedy]

jonathan,
There has never been a top 10 course listed on the "Top 100 Greatest Courses" that has ever fallen off the list in subsequent years.
Your question is a bit is a bit misleading as Pine tree was never ranked in the top 10 "greatest courses". It was in the top 10 "most testing courses" for '69/'70 but fell into the top 30 when GD went to the "greatest" list, a much different set of criteria.  
It did fall off the "greatest list" in '93/'94 but was back on '95 thru '98. It fell off again until 2003 where it now ranks 81st.

 

[Jonathan Cummings]

Jim - what you say is completely true.  I stretched a little with top 10 = top 10 toughest.  But the point I was trying to make is my surprise as how far down this course once described by Ben Hogan as "the best course he has played", and Sam Snead as "the best course in the south", has fallen.

JC

[Jim_Kennedy]

jonathan,
What did they know  

 

[Mike_Sweeney]

It will be interesting to see what they do to The Monster as The Concord gets redone. I have never played it, however friends made it sound like a very very long RTJ style course. Anybody play it?

From the website:

http://www.concordresort.com/index.html

The Concord Resort & Golf Club, is the home of the World Famous "Monster" Golf Course rated by Golf Digest as one of America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses.

At 7,650 yards from the "Monster Tees", this par 72 challenges every player with length, extensive bunkering, and a variety of water hazards. The Joseph Finger, Jimmy Demaret, and Jackie Burke, Jr. design offers a consistent World Class golf experience.



Jonathon,

As a rating guru, why do you think Pine Tree and The Monster made such a initial splash? Assuming that The Monster got in for length and difficulty, it is interesting that The International never got in, I think? Early Fazio bias ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jonathan,

The interesting factor is that little has changed at Pine Tree over the last 40 years, it's basically the same golf course.

I believe it might have been ranked in the top 30 at one time, perhaps # 25 or # 27.

The playing and shot values remain terrific.

I suspect that the housing, which is in fairly close proximity to the golf course and disturbing to the framing eye may have had an impact on Pine Tree's slide, BUT, those houses have been mostly screened out by a perimeter planting program over the last 8 years or so.

The one architectural letdown my have been the 10th hole.
Originally a par 4, it was converted to a par 5, when it was discovered that the back tee on # 12 was not on the club's property and that hole had to be shortened from a par 5 to a par 4.  Those who prefered a balanced par 72 then converted the 10th from a great par 4 to a mediocre to weak par 5.

That has now changed, and the 10th hole can now be played as either, a demanding par 4 or a soft par 5.  Par is now, either 71 or 72, depending on your choice.

The wind is a meaningful factor in the play of the golf course, although, sitting inland, it doesn't get the gales off the Atlantic Ocean, the good breezes have a strong impact on play.

I've played a number of courses that, in my opinion, can't hold a candle to Pine Tree, yet they are rated higher.

I think that one of the reasons is that people who come to Florida are disappointed because Pine Tree is not a typical Florida golf course, it's more northern in feel, and perhaps that disapointment translates to lower ratings.

Pine Tree is a great golf course with a great bunch of guys/golfers as members.

P.S.  Sam Snead, not known to throw money around, liked the golf course so much that he became a dues paying member.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

You mentioned courses you have played that are rated higher than Pine Tree but in your mind "can't hold a candle to Pine Tree."

Be most interested if you would list a few of them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

As I typed it, I was wondering who would be the first one to ask me that question, and..... I never guessed it would be you.

But, I will list the ONES I"VE PLAYED in a subsequent post.

Shall I start in Florida ?

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

I respect your take on golf courses for the very reasons because you have taken the time to actually play a good mixture of courses over the course of a lifetime -- instead of the usual 19th hole bird chirping you get from a few folks on GCA who simply bark on and on byt their "in-depth" analysis through only aerials and the like.

You can start anywhere you like but I would ask you to include any specific reasons why you believe the subject courses "can't hold a candle."

I too have a high opinion of Pine Tree but I don't know if I would include it in my personal top 50 -- it might grab a spot in the top 100 but that comes more for my general indifference to much of what constitutes golf in the Sunshine State.

I'm guessing only Seminole would be ahead of Pine Tree in FL?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Pat - Read the link in post #3 if you haven't.  The author tries and does a good job explaining why PT is not better thought of.  I too think PT is terrific.  Rock solid golf with wonderful and varied green complexes.

Mike - the only explanation I can venture is that these Wilson/Lee courses built in the golf architecture (classical to modern) transition years had much less competition and were consequently ranked higher.  Top notch modern courses built since then have slowly but surely edged these Wilson/Lee gems out.

On a personal list I would put PT in the top 50 of the 750 or so courses I have played.

JC  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
The International was ranked for 9 years but didn't make it to the "Greatest Courses" list when it came out.
America's 200 Toughest Courses (1966)
America's 200 Toughest Courses (1967-1968)
America's 100 Most Testing Courses (1969-1970) – Fifth 10
America's 100 Greatest Tests of Golf (1971-1972) – Second 50
America's 100 Greatest Tests of Golf (1973-1974) – Second 50
Off the list in 1975

[Tom_Doak]

There always seems to be room for a few courses in the rankings which are accepted to be the hardest course of the day.  Other examples of this would be the Stadium course at PGA West and Butler National.

But, architects are always out there building ever harder courses, and if this is a course's main qualification for inclusion, it can fall from grace quickly when another harder course comes along.

[David_Madison]

I played Pine Tree a few weeks ago while rating the course for one of the major publications. The layout was wonderful, with plenty of shotmaking variety and interest. This was as straightforward, fair, and playable a South Florida course could be while still being sufficiently challenging. It must have been a real monster back when a 260 yard drive was considered long. I can absolutely understand this being a top 100 course.

My one disappointment was with the grooming of the course. Everything was in great shape, and the grass everywhere seemed healthy. These were the best tees I've ever played on anywhere. The course just didn't have the eye appeal "pop" that I thought was available. The fairways were wide and not as contoured as much as one might expect, with little definition between fairway and rough. The course has wonderful bunkering, but the too simple grassing around the bunkers took something away.

The golf culture here was extraordinary. I don't believe that there is a course within 100 miles that has half the number of low handicap players. It was my sense from speaking with a number of members that everyone, regardless of playing ability, cared about the game and their club.

[DPL11]

My one disappointment was with the grooming of the course. Everything was in great shape, and the grass everywhere seemed healthy. These were the best tees I've ever played on anywhere. The course just didn't have the eye appeal "pop" that I thought was available. The fairways were wide and not as contoured as much as one might expect, with little definition between fairway and rough. The course has wonderful bunkering, but the too simple grassing around the bunkers took something away.

It sounds to me like they are doing a wonderful job with the course, and not caving in to making it look like a modern track, which is isn't.

Doug

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave Madison,

My one disappointment was with the grooming of the course. Everything was in great shape, and the grass everywhere seemed healthy.

Your statements are contradictory, on one hand you state that the golf course was in great shape, and on the other you state that you were disappointed in the grooming.

How do you reconcile these conflicting statements ?
Could you expand on what you mean and clarify these statements for me ?

These were the best tees I've ever played on anywhere.

You can thank Boca Rio for Pine Trees tees.
Pine Tree observed the tees at Boca Rio, experimented with two tees, and then regrassed all tees ala Boca Rio.

The course just didn't have the eye appeal "pop" that I thought was available.

This is what I alluded to on an earlier post.
I guess it depends on whether one wants to experience Florida Glitz or superior architecture with plenty of strategy and challenge

The fairways were wide and not as contoured as much as one might expect, with little definition between fairway and rough.

Pine Tree was created and designed as a "golfers" golf course and not a monument to "eye candy"

Many, if not most classic golf courses don't have contoured fairways for contouring's sake.

Pine Trees fairways follow the architecture as Dick Wilson intended.  Scalloped, or contoured fairways add nothing to the architecture or play of the golf course.

The seeming lack of definition between fairway and rough is due to the fact that the tees are at ground level and seemlessly tranistion into their fairways.  If the tees were elevated even the most obtuse golfer would clearly see the lines of demarcation between the fairways and roughs.
GCGC has a similar look from their ground level tees, but members who suggest elevating them, as have some deranged members at Pine Tree, are never heard of, or  from, again.

The course has wonderful bunkering, but the too simple grassing around the bunkers took something away.

I don't understand what you mean by this, if the bunkering is wonderful, what is it that the surrounding grass takes away ?  

Did you also get a chance to study the many pictures from Pine Trees inception and early years ?
They are very interesting.

The golf culture here was extraordinary. I don't believe that there is a course within 100 miles that has half the number of low handicap players. It was my sense from speaking with a number of members that everyone, regardless of playing ability, cared about the game and their club.

About two years ago, Pine Tree had 58 members out of 325, with handicaps of 4 or lower, 20 at 2 or lower and 10 at 0 or lower, and they're a great bunch of guys, with comraderie, golf and the golf course being a high priority.

If you're a golfer, Pine Tree is a pretty good spot.

[David_Madison]

Pat,

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should have been in distinguishing turf grooming from healthiness. Having every thing in good shape is self explanatory. By grooming I meant the look as one transitions from fairways to rough, perhaps with an intermediate cut, and using the grading of the terrain outside the fairways in many cases as a guide. I appreciate your point about the look from the tees, but there was little difference when standing on an elevated green and looking back. The rough was cut way down and may have been thinner than usual due some cooler weather in November and December. Everything was just the same color, and from a playing perspective there wasn't much of a penalty for missing a fairway.

There's no need to glitze up an old, classic course just for the sake of creating some "eye candy". But there's a balance here, and to my eye a little more definition would have been appropriate. I heard this comment or complaint from multiple members, some of whom were prominent in the club and who have been members for years. It was my sense that there was some debate going on at the club about this very issue. But as an avid golfer and one who appreciates a great club spirit, this was about as good a spot as I've ever experienced.

Perhaps I just caught the place at a bad time relative to that one minor disappointing element. I'm sure that I'd have a different opinion if I saw the course during the summer. Acutally I had a run of not seeing courses at their best, as I played The Ocean Course at Kiawah about a week later and it was dead calm.

[Slider8]

Ummmmmm.....who cares?

What golf course was once in the top 10 (!) on Gold Digest's top 100 list but as of ten years ago wasn't even in the top 100?

JC

[Jonathan Cummings]

Slider - High and outside, ball four!

While some may not, it is quite clear most are curious about the rating game.  Just ask the magazine advertisers.

JC

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave,

Pat,

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should have been in distinguishing turf grooming from healthiness. Having every thing in good shape is self explanatory. By grooming I meant the look as one transitions from fairways to rough, perhaps with an intermediate cut,

If the contrast between the rough and fairway was difficult for you to distinguish, an intermediate cut would compound, not help the situation.

Remember too, that this is the dormant season in Florida.

and using the grading of the terrain outside the fairways in many cases as a guide.

Pine Tree is very flat, so there's not much terrain that has usable grading for any purpose

I appreciate your point about the look from the tees, but there was little difference when standing on an elevated green and looking back. The rough was cut way down and may have been thinner than usual due some cooler weather in November and December. Everything was just the same color, and from a playing perspective there wasn't much of a penalty for missing a fairway.

It's supposed to be the same color, the grass is in its dormant stage.  I believe that they had a severe cold snap right before or during your visit.  This usually results in changes in maintainance and playing conditions.  I arrived on 12-26-03 and the weather was terrific.  Bermuda rough doesn't have to be overly deep to be effective.  In the rare times I hit it in the rough,  , the rough provided sufficient challenge

There's no need to glitze up an old, classic course just for the sake of creating some "eye candy". But there's a balance here, and to my eye a little more definition would have been appropriate.

On what holes did you find the definition of where to go and where not to go insufficient ?

I heard this comment or complaint from multiple members, some of whom were prominent in the club and who have been members for years. It was my sense that there was some debate going on at the club about this very issue. But as an avid golfer and one who appreciates a great club spirit, this was about as good a spot as I've ever experienced.

I'm aware of your conversations, and the individuals you had them with.  There is a desire by almost all of the members to have the golf course in superior playing condition, some are just a little more critical, demanding and vocal then others.   There is a problem with the use of effluent water, which may be manifesting itself in a variety of ways.
 
Perhaps I just caught the place at a bad time relative to that one minor disappointing element. I'm sure that I'd have a different opinion if I saw the course during the summer. Acutally I had a run of not seeing courses at their best, as I played The Ocean Course at Kiawah about a week later and it was dead calm.

Augusta televises The Masters in early April, an ideal time of the year to present the sharp contrasts of the fairways, roughs, pine straw, water, pine trees, etc., etc.., But, if you played there in October, November, December or January, you would not find the contrasts that you are looking for.

So you have to ask yourself, what is it you want from a golf course, especially in the dormant season, the look to the eye, or the substance of the architecture and playing challenge ?


I think, if you played Pine Tree in the summer, you'd see the distinction you're looking for

[David_Madison]

Pat,

I agree with you that the focus should be on the architectural features and the playing challenge. After all, the architect can't dictate what a superintendent is going to do twenty years later. Having once lived in South Florida for twenty years, I understand about dormant bermuda. Just have it at 1 1/2" or so and you have wonderful flyer rough that doesn't really hurt the average or weaker players, but makes it a pain for the better players to control their shots. And you are right about an intermediate cut taking away definition.

I've never had the opportunity to play Seminole, but how do they treat the issue there? I played Jupiter Hills (my favorite Florida course) on the same trip recently, and there was more of a defined flow of the holes. True, they have more varied terrain, the sandy waste areas, and other things to work with. But even on a hole like #2, which you know is a relatively flat straightforward long and difficult par 4 without those hazards closely in play, I saw more of the definition that I was speaking of, especially around the green. And I remember playing Doral a few times a number of years ago (before all of the changes), even during the winter where the aesthetics just hit my eye better.

I agree that there is a ton of great architecture built into Pine Tree, probably more so than at a number of courses ranked higher in any number of publications. I rated it accordingly. The course would be outstanding with wall to wall fairways, as long as everything was running fast and firm. But is it possible that the look, is having an impact on how it is perceived and therefore rated? And if ratings are important to the membership, is there anything that can be done in the area of grooming where they could add a little visual pop without degrading the playability and the shot values?

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

I'd love to see the courses you believe are overrated when compared to Pine Tree. Like I said you can start in Florida but I'd really like to see any others listed from different parts in the USA.

Many thanks ...

[Jim Franklin]

BTW Ben Hogan said it is the best "flat" golf course he has ever played not the best course. And it is one flat golf course, but I thoroughly enjoyed playing there. Lots of options to play the course.

[Scott_Burroughs]

....instead of the usual 19th hole bird chirping you get from a
few folks on GCA who simply bark on and on byt their "in-
depth" analysis through only aerials and the like.

Matt,

Not sure if this was directed at me, but when I show aerials,
it's primarily for informational purposes, not for in-depth
analysis (I never claimed so).  However, some interesting
features and analysis can been gleaned from views from
above.  I show this aerial of Pine Tree as additional
information for those discussing it's merits.  I have not played
the course.

(Pine Tree was AOTD #183)