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Patrick_Mucci

Flynn & Fazio, what's the difference in the Creeks ?
« on: January 17, 2004, 11:02:21 PM »
Indian Creek and Shadow Creek.

What's the difference in these two unnatural, totally manufactured golf courses, created in an alien environment ?

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn & Fazio, what's the difference in the Creeks ?
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2004, 06:43:00 AM »
Pat, have not played SC but what jumps out about IC are the great angles, constant wind and solid push up green complexes, I suspect IC beats SC on all these counts.

TEPaul

Re:Flynn & Fazio, what's the difference in the Creeks ?
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2004, 08:03:16 AM »
I've never played or even been to either one of them so I can't say much about how they compare that way but I certainly have seen a ton of photos of both, particularly Indian Creek. Comparing them that way Indian Creek is in Florida and it looks like Florida and Shadow Creek is in Nevada and it looks like Oregon or something, some say North Carolina. In that sense SC is incongruous to me and IC isn't.

wsmorrison

Re:Flynn & Fazio, what's the difference in the Creeks ?
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2004, 08:49:41 AM »
Indian Creek was meant to look natural in its environment.  The contours built above grade were meant to provide push up greens, elements of the ground game, and eight vantage points not including the clubhouse which occupies the highest ground and overlooks 1 and 10 tees and 9 and 18 greens.  I'm not sure what these overlooks were designed for.  Were they for the small membership's enjoyment or was this an early attempt at designing a stadium course?  Many of the vantage points are well inside the course and are positioned near groupings of tees and greens.  It seems that the primary purpose was for viewing the golf course.  Not having been there, I don't know what the vistas look like beyond the course.  The rugged edges of the bunkers and their design and placement were meant to look completely natural using native grasses and a natural eroded look.  Flynn clearly knew what he was doing as the routing really takes into account various wind directions especially the winter winds out of the NE.  Flynn's use of S-curves, lines created by the framing of trees and hazards to accentuate perceived angles, and build-ups that create perceptual problems that need to be thought out are some of the hallmarks of Flynn's design at IC and other clubs.  This course, like many Flynns, test one's skill in judgement to devise a strategy to employ and the physical skills to execute the plan.  

From what I have been told, members say that their guests have no idea that IC is on man-made ground.  Probably a number members have no idea either.  Generally, Flynn was determined to use the naturalness of the site as much as possible in his course designs.  He was brilliant in this regard and his routings were a key to his use of the land as nature provided.  However, where earth movement and engineering were required (such as IC and Cascades) his preference was to use natural lines to hide the hand of man.  This is clearly a more expensive method and one Flynn took care to explain to his clients (we have his explanation to JD Rockefeller, Jr for instance).

Speaking of expense, there is Shadow Creek.  While Flynn used cheap fill from the dredging of the intracoastal waterway, there was nothing cheap about SC.  I also have not been to SC but it is clear that the idea was to provide something extraordinary and have it appear more so in its juxtaposition with the surrounding environment unlike Indian Creek.  Just like Las Vegas itself, it was meant to be a seductive illusion in the desert.  A showcase for money, power, and exclusivity.  While IC is certainly exclusive it is not based upon money alone.  the IC members are of a small cross-section of people who grew up together, vacationed together, and went to many of the same schools.  

Now the specifics of the design is another story.  I cannot comment on that since I have not been to either.  However, the overall design philosophy seems different to me.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2004, 09:11:14 AM by wsmorrison »