Raynor's Rock-A-Hula

[Mike Hendren]

In watching highlights of yesterday's Sony Open, the fourth green jumped out of the television.  I assume this is a Biarritz.  Also, the 17th appears to be a Redan.  

How true are these holes to their original design and how much of Raynor's work remains at Waialae?

Regards,

Mike

[Jeff_Mingay]

Sorry to get away from your question, Mike... but I've always thought, how cool would it be if Waialae was properly restored as close as possible to Raynor's original design?

Would such an improvement to the course improve the Sony Open, from both a player's and spectator's perspective? I have to think so.

If nothing else, it would make the Waialae course a lot more unique than it appears to be at present.

Just a thought.

[Mike Hendren]

Jeff,

You did not wander at all.  It's just that there seems to be little association between Waialae and Raynor.  Given the topo and soil, I'm guessing his engineering was more constrained/subtle there and as you say, could be more readily restored.  

Does the absence of moaning about Raynor's lost work there lead to the conclusion that the course was nothing special?

Mike

[Joel_Stewart]

I think Waialae could be something if they brought in an architect who was allowed to embellish quite a bit.  It would take a George Bahto or Tom Doak and that is not going to happen.

The problem is the membership which is the most lazy non-informed membership in the United States and possibly the world.  The only thing they care about is riding in carts and  prefer Tom Fazio to Seth Raynor anyday.

The other Raynor course is Mid-Pacific which has been changed many times, most recently by Robin Nelson has has virtually no Raynor left at all.

I think this may be the last year on the contract with Waialae so next year we may see Royal Kunia?

[George_Bahto]

guys: Waialae's original course had some of the neatest fairway bunkering you can imagine. I have the original concept drawing and the bunkering and strategies were very similar to what was originally proposed for Yeamans Hall - there too, great fairway bunkering (aside from what was at the green complexes).

At Waialae all the representative holes were there (stress, "were"). After I made, my drawing of the original layout I couldn't even watch the tourney any more - still can't.

It seems when Raynor had uninteresting ground he really brought on the fairway bunkering. Conversely, usually with more dramatic ground (what I call "violent" terrain) he often used the terrain take the place of some of the strategic fairway bunkering  .....   Yale, a good example. There are others.

[RJ_Daley]

George, how long does the concept drawing suggest that SR intended it to play?  C&W traces remodelling to Bob Baldock, AJ Snyder, and Robin Nelson.  Did any others also have a go at it?  Any estimate of how many bunkers and mounds were lost?  Did they drastically narrow fairways?  Did SRs concepts show inclusion of many palm trees, or was it more like a treeless links concept?

[ChipOat]

George Bahto:

Keep the commentary coming!

All:

There was a thread on this about a year ago, I think.  Right about SONY tournament time, actually.  Funny how that happens.....

[George_Bahto]

Richard - whoa, look at the questions here - you sound like Mucci now - hah

I’ve got an article about “the new Royal Hawaiian Hotel course” (the Territorial Hotel Co) published in January 1927 and written the previous year by none other than Seth J. Raynor ....  I mean this guy finally wrote something down!! I was published in a Hawaiian magazine called ALOHA  (surprise - surprise - what else would it have been called) .... forwarded to me by a very nice gentleman at the Mid-Pacific course also laid out at the same time by SR.

Raynor died in Jan 1926, the Waialae course was not finished until the following year by Charlie Banks.

In part: “The new Royal Hawaiian course at Honolulu was laid out at about 6,400 yards ..... 6,000 from the short trees and about 6,600 yards from the long tees.” It goes on to talk about the famous hole concept and includes one of the Macdonald Raynor favorites, the 5th at Garden City - he inserted that hole quite often. .........  It also stated he left there in the middle of December to go back to FL.

The article confirmed for me a couple courses he built that I had had trouble substantiating: listing the usual “suspects of Piping Rock Mid Ocean St Louis etc but listed Riddle’s Bay in Bermuda, generally credited to Emmet (I have other conformations of that one) and a Vanderbilt chain, hotel course in Porto Rico (it was spelled like that then) which I had a lot of trouble tracking down.

The course has the same routing today as it had when built and for those who want to see if there is any semblance to the originals, here are a few of the holes designs.

2nd Hole - Eden - 4th looks as though it was a Double Plateau - 6th: bottle-neck bunkers with a cross bunker 300-yds off the tee - 7th Garden City 5th hole - 8 a Redan at 190 - the 10th looks like it was (is) a great hole (except for the pros I guess) ... Road hole with two sets of tees (on at 540) - this one is interesting: 12th:  370 drive and pitch large diagonal bunker offers select tee shot, “jaw” bunkers 300 yards from the tee to a plateau green ...   this is long version of the “Knoll” hole .... there should have been a back plateau on a highly elevated green - 13 is Biarritz (single green but bunkered perfectly as if it were 2 greens  - 16th a Short built at 140 yards and 18 looked like a really good finisher, 492 with a stream running across the second shot landing area.

Let me know what’s there that resembles any of this, if any of you are watching.

Dick I can’t tell how may bunkers are gone.

I think Rick Smith worked on the course a few years ago.

There is an aerial photo of the original course taken just after it was completed - opening was in Feb 1927. The course had a lot of groups of trees scattered all over the layout and the fairways were very wide .......... all clubs please take note!!! hah some of the areas look to be at least 60 yards wide.

Good looking swale on the Biarritz - someday I’m going to count up how many 13th holes were Biarritz hole - there a lot of them.

Richard - no info on tree planting. The ocean holes were had a few trees and really look great.

The Road hole looked like one of the best holes on the course - great bunkering off the tee and a great green complex. I wonder what itz like now??

[RJ_Daley]

We love to wind your clock George!  Try to develop a little enthusiasm for this stuff, will ya?  

[noonan]

I heard Raynor's name mentioned many times today during the telecast by Ian Baker Finch.....Finch must follow architecture.

[tonyt]

Finchy sure does. Even designed probably the third or fourth best course in Australia since WW2, as well as a couple in the US.

[Mike_Clayton]

tonyt

It is true Finchy does get into the architecture and that he had quite a bit to do with Kennedy Bay.
Not quite as much as Michael Coate or Roger Mackay though.

By all acconts,Finchy was always trying to make it harder and Roger was trying to make it easier.

Having player it it seems Finchy won and that is one of the problems there. Wonderful course but 'too hard'

[tonyt]

Mike, yeah I'm often thinking of what contribution to architecture in Australia we lost when Roger turned in his scorecard way too early.

[Mike Hendren]

George,

Thanks for the insight.  I take it the nines have been switched?

www.pgatour.com/tournaments/r006/course

Mike