[Matt_Ward]

Had the pleasure in playing The Estancia Club for a second time today and it was good to see what has happened since my initial round there in 1996.

For those who may not know Estancia was closed for several months this summer and replaced the former A-4 greens they had. It seems the base of the putting surfaces was being underminded by the poor water quality used and that the greens were becoming overly soft.

I believe the new surface is called Dynamo(?) and the greens are indeed coming along quite nicely. They had plenty of speed and one had to pay attention to avoid a quick three-putt. Within a few weeks they should be quite good.

How is the course?

Well, that requires a little detail. Unfortunately, the course is simply too-soft from the application of too much H20 by man's hands. The course plays from the tips at 7,146 yards but you can really add no less than 20 yards per hole (minus the par-3's) for the actual effective length. Balls hit the fairway and they simply move at best a yard ot two. That situation is indeed regrettable for such a good layout. If Estancia were to play firm and fast the inherent design aspects created by TF would clearly add to the challenge and uniqueness of the course.

Overall, Estancia is still one of the finer TF design, but I have to agree with redanman that the course doesn't have enough architectural elements one can define as compelling or extraordinary. TF has done far better work with such newer designs as Dallas National and Glenwild. It's still worthy to play when in the area, however, The Estancia doesn't have the juice to be a prime candidate to be anything more than a 6 on the Doak scale. In fact, I would say the new Outlaw Course at DM has more character and architectural sizzle than Estancia.

Onward to Apache Stronghold tomorrow ...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt
I have played Gallery North(?) twice and enjoyed the course both times. The housing is not intrusive, the bunkering may be a little steep, the sand was too fluffy but all in all it was a very enjoyable experience. Mrs. acer2x didn't like the bunkers at all. The developers are big time,the clubhouse is neat and the scenery dramatic. The new course was built to be more playable and less difficult as the members requested less bunkers. That's why there is an emphasis on short game chipping areas.
Did you or can you find time to tour TGC Scottsdale?

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

I hope to tour the site before leaving Thursday. I believe the course will not open until sometime in the Fall of '04.

Regarding The Gallery I don't doubt the enthusiasm of the ownership and their ability to provide a private club with all the amenities. The clubhouse and the overall site in being so close to the mountain range with all the natural desert terrain is quite dynamic.

But, when I hear from the architect and the ownership that Pinehurst #2 was their model and then you play the new South Course and see that things didn't work out as planned is a bit disappointing.

There are a few holes of note with the South -- I mentioned the 4th as one example. I also really liked the long par-3 3rd because the green on that hole does in fact look like an inverted saucer.

The problem is that too many of the greens allow too much "breathing" room for half-hit approach shots and since the South has plenty of landing room in the driving zone I was hoping the greens would have a bit more sizzle to provide for some balance.

The routing for the South is also suspect IMHO. You start with the first seven holes and they all go downhill. Why aren't one or two designed to go in the reverse direction in order to provide a clear change of pace? On the flip side the long par-4 13th is quite good but the green is the size of Texas?

I also have to add that with the exception of the par-3 3rd the rest of the par-3's are quite pedestrian. The 8th looks like a do-or-die type hole but it's more of a visual threat than a physical reality. Why? The green is immensely big and you can bail out without much of a penalty.

I like the work John Fought does (his efforts at The Reserve and Pumpkin Ridge -- both in OR) are quite good. It just seems ownership was intent on providing for a course that is so defined by "playable" characteristics that they forgot to add enough compelling features to make the course comparable to what the original is IMHO. I'm not suggesting the new course "look" or "play" like the original but the compelling architectural points were in my opinion muted and not sufficiently outlined.

Be curious to your comments when you play it.

[Forrest Richardson]

Actually, Whitten never qualified his "biggest name" reference. Joel will have to wonder.

The Outlaw is the most exciting new in AZ as it comes to us as a surprise from a developer we did not feel would depart too far from a formula...and also from JN, who many did not feel would try this approach.

It also is a core design. I expect it to rise to the top of many people's list of the best desert courses.

[Matt_Ward]

I've posted my comments on my day at Apache Stronghold on another thread. Just a quick hole-by-hole account at The Outlaw -- Desert Mountain's latest new course -- the 6th in fact.

1st hole / 410 yards -- par-4

Plays uphill off the tee -- plenty of room off the tee but one needs to favor one side or the other depending upon where the flag is situated for the best angle. The green falls off in front and in the rear very steeply -- you also have a solitary front bunker that lurks for those who are a bit too frisky. Good opener because it isn't a long slog but it doesn't give anything away for free either.

2nd hole / 552 yards -- par-5

Plays up over a hill and you can't see the botton of the fairway which descends at about 280 yards. If you can carry a tee shot that far you will get a slight turbo boost. There are also two hidden fairway bunkers on the right which you must avoid. The green sits high above the fairway and takes an all-carry shot to reach it -- anything short will roll back a good ways as it pitches towards the fairway. The green is quite deep but not that wide.

3rd hole / 512 yards -- par-4 (no misprint!)

Plays downhill and as a slight dog-leg left. The tempting play is to sling a draw and follow the fairway line. There are bunkers out on the right side by they are there mainly for directional purposes. When you stand on the tee you can literally see for miles with the various mountain chains sitting way off in the distance.

For those who are long hitters it is possible to reach a cut-off area that comes across the fairway and is about 110 yards from the fairway.

The green is neatly angled from lower left to top right. The approach has got come in high and soft to stay somewhere on the green. The holeis handicapped #3 and is well deserved.

4th hole / 217 yards -- par-3

Tough, tough par-3. Plays slightly downhill but the green is well protected by a lone bunker on the right side. Nicklaus has provided an opening to the left but if the pin is flush right it takes a tremendous shot to get close. If you miss right the result will be a ball bounding further and further away from the target.

5th hole / 367 yards --par-4

Good short par-4 that plays uphill all the way. The fairway provides enough room but the second shot must reach a green that sits above the approach area and is quite narrow.

6th hole / 197 yards -- par-3

Another uphill hole which has a nicely contoured green. The further the pin is placed left the greater the carry to get there.

7th hole / 430 yards -- par-4

Also plays uphill and it plays all of the 430 yards listed. The tee shot needs to hug the left side to give you the better angled into the target. The green is also well contoured.

8th hole / 470 yards -- par-4

Plays downhill but the key is getting the ball to finish in the fairway. The green is deliciously contoured and has a fall-off on the far left side that feeds gently to the right. If the pin is placed far right you will have to come over a frontal bunker that grabs plenty of balls.

9th hole / 538 yards -- par-5

Probably the least of holes from an architectural standpoint. The hole goes up all the way to the green and really doesn't have the same bite and sizzle as the rest of the holes ont he front.

Total distance from the tips for the front nine -- 3,693 yards.

I'll post the back nine in a few moments ...

[Matt_Ward]

The back nine at the Outlaw ...

10th hole / 338 yards -- par-4

A simply delicious hole because the green is sonarrow and will only accept first rate approaches. There is also a DEEP bunker that guards the front. Best bet? Be short because going long will mean the ball running even further and further away from the target.

11th hole / 354 yards -- par-4

Like the 9th hole I believe the 11th here is redundancy. Although it plays completely uphill -- as opposed to the 10th -- the hole really doesn't have the strategic dimensions that a short par-4 should have.

12th hole / 203 yards -- par-3

Very subtle hole. The green runs away from the tee and when the pin is flush front you have to hit a supreme shot to stay close.

13th hole / 616 yards -- par-5

Plays downhill and moves slightly to the right. You have avoid a series of bunkers on the left and right and the fairway does narrow as you go longer off the tee. The green is protected by a rise that comes about 20-30 yards before the putting surface.

14th hole / 338 yards -- par-4

Decent short hole with plenty of bunkers in the driving area. The green is the key as there is plenty of contour.

15th hole / 187 yards -- par-3

Plays slightly uphill and the green is part of a double green it shares with the par-4 3rd. Well done hole that proves uphill par-3's have a place in design.

16th hole / 532 yards -- par-5

Plays uphill but unlike the 9th has a great deal of versatility. The tee shot must avoid two fairway bunkers on the left and a solo one on the right. The second shot is the key becaue although the green can be reached in two blows the shot must be all-carry to achieve it. If you miss to either side the recovery becomes even more demanding.

17th hole / 382 yards -- par-4

Superb mid-length par-4. Jack designed a delicious fairway bunker that guards the left side of the fairway. It is simply well placed. The golfer can play short and to the right of the bunker but then the approach becomes blind as the green sits on an angle with two distinct levels. The golfer can attempt to bypass the fairway bunker but the drive must be well hit to do so. A great hole indeed!

18th hole / 464 yards -- par-4

Plays to the south and usually into the prevailing wind. The views are outstanding on this hole. There are a series of bunkers int he drive zone -- the key one being on the right side which provides the best angle to the green. The putting surface is also two distinct levels but is blended well.

Outlaw is a really fun course to play and I'm sure the members and their guests will revel in the fact that it is so unique and different from the others at DM. Outlaws doesn;t hit home runs with evey hole but I would play it again in a heartbeat -- it's fun and exciting without being overly restrictive as so many courses are in the desert.

[JWL]

 
Matt,
Thanks for the hole by hole critique of Outlaw.  I thought you were pretty accurate in your assessment of the holes.
I do think it will be a really fun course to play regularly because I think the options are so numerous on so many holes that the wind direction and strength will change the shot requirements often.   I don't think boredom from "lack of shot variety" will be the case at Outlaw.
I was a bit surprised that #11 and #14 didn't catch your attention a little more, and you should probably know that there are two bunkers on the right side of the 4th green, to catch shots from running too far away from the green.
Also, I think you may have met one or more of my associates the day you played.  I am also under the impression that, for at least part of the round, you played in a strong wind that was blowing from an opposite direction.   From the info I received, I was surprised somewhat by the clubs that my associate hit into some of the holes.   The wind is certainly going to be a factor.  I had predicted that on calm days, some very low scores might be shot, but on windy days, the scores might really balloon.    I can't wait to play it and actually count my score.
Thanks again for the kind words.  I am very pleased that you seemed to enjoy the course.

[Matt_Ward]

JWL:

I really enjoyed Outlaw -- I salute the Nicklaus design team because the layout is not by ANY means the conventional penal style of golf you often find in Phoenix / Scottsdale. One of the biggest laughs I had was the next day when I played Estancia -- a few of the members there actually can't stand Outlaw and I found their comments to be amusing.

Outlaw requires careful thinking on all the shots. The greens are well defended but there is ALWAYS a safe option. You have to execute and know your game.

Too many courses that advertise themselves as "playable" are really dumbed-down layouts that simply are so lite from the golf side that they are really meaningless. Anyone playing The Boulders will know what I mean.

I believe Outlaw will develop its own fan base and liek I said previously the holes are a solid mixture and you are constantly asked to think your way around. I also salute the club in promoting walking and in maintaining the sensational views you get from all places when playing the layout.

Gentlemen:

A few updates ...

I mispoke about GC of Scottsdale -- the club is ready to go and should be fully operation fromt he golf side by spring time.

Couple of other notes ...

Verado -- located 23 miles west of Phoenix is opening  a Tom Lehman designed layout in January. There are also plans for a Rees Jones layout as well. Future plans call for another two courses as well with architects unknown.

Vistancia -- located in the same general vicinity. Will open a Gary Panks design shortly and there are plans for a future course design by Jim Engh.

Douglas Ranch -- located even further west of Buckeye the main principals are the owners of the Suns and Diamondbacks and there's been talk that as many 15-20 courses may be built in that area. An acquifer is in the area and water issues may not be as acute as they are in other locales within the state.

Lyle Anderson is also contemplating several courses in the Buckeye area and possibly involving a British Open theme with previous winners lending their names to the respective courses.

It's hard to imagine that things keep going on at such a hectic pace but the focus now in AZ seems to be west of town in Peoria, Buckeye and Douglas. Be curious to see how all of this works out.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I don't know if this should be a new thread but I just came across a transcript of the press conference for the opening of The Gallery South Course in Tucson. Very interesting comments by John Fought, the architect, on his use of Ross inspired greens.

Here's the link:

www.arizonafairways.com/displaynews.php?newsfile=currentnews/The+Gallery+News+Conference.cfm&title=Current+News

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

I attended the press event at The Gallery and while John's devotion to Ross is clearly apparent the finished product of the new South Course there is just not in the same league.

I don't doubt his sincerity to the Ross style -- but implementing that is another matter. With few exceptions the new South Course doesn't have the mustard to claim greens at the high octane level Ross was known for IMHO.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt
I started a new thread " John Fought on Ross." I hope to get to Tucson this spring on my next trip to AZ and play Gallery South and see exactly what he did there. My understanding was that both ownership and membership wanted a less difficult course. I think that shows in other comments made at the press conference.

Interesting to note that 2 more courses are planned for the property if and when money can be obtained for a resort. I heard Marriott was looking into Tucson.

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Hate to say this but John's initial layout at The Gallery -- the North -- simply a good ways beyond the new South.

I credit the ownership for trying to keep housing at bay from being too front and center but the routing and quality of holes is really golf-lite IMHO.

The first seven holes keep moving in the same general direction (downhill) and the green designs are only sporadic in their desire to be "Ross like."

I'll take a round at the new Outlaw anyday.

P.S. What's really sad is that the Dove Mountain site is truly one of the most gorgeous you can find in the immediate Tucson area -- and among the best in all of AZ. Unfortunately, when ownership gets TOO involved you then face a series of "compromises" which invariably means the course will be a mixture of good, bad and indifferent. That's my take on the new South Course. It could have been but ...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The Raven at Verrado(Fought/Lehman) in Buckeye, AZ has opened for play. This is the first of 3 new new courses in the West Valley to open this winter. Here is a review from today's Arizona Republic:

W. Valley hits an ace
Verrado course is lush, fun

John Davis
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 22, 2004 12:00 AM


If the West Valley is the new hotbed of golf development, then it certainly has put its best foot forward with the Raven Golf Club at Verrado.

The course, a centerpiece of the new Verrado community in Buckeye, opened this week to rave reviews.

Designed by Tom Lehman and John Fought, the public course at the base of the White Tank Mountains not only is player-friendly, but features playing conditions far better than most new layouts.

It needs time for the rough to grow and stop errant shots from reaching the desert, but its fairways offer plenty of room to hit the landing areas, where the grass is as lush as most of the Valley's established high-end courses.

The links-style greens appeal to Lehman, who won the 1996 British Open.

"The biggest thing is we wanted to make it a course that's fun to play, not something that's going to beat you up, and I think we achieved that," Lehman said. "There's a lot of fairway to work with, and the greens are relatively flat.

"I've always felt that golf should be played as much on the ground as in the air, and you can run the ball up onto these greens."

Managed by Intrawest Golf, it is the Valley's second Raven course and has a unique marketing tactic with its "all-inclusive" green fee. During peak season, the rate is $119 on weekdays and $139 on weekends, which includes breakfast, lunch, range balls and all the golf you can play. During the off-season, those rates will drop to the $50 range.

"Rather than just repeat what's been done in the past, we're taking a whole new approach that will give our guests a caliber of experience not available anywhere else," said Jeff Stipec, president of Intrawest Golf. "It will be a true member-for-a-day environment."

The course is part of a new community that will open its doors Saturday. It will feature 14,000 homes, ranging from $140,000 to $400,000, custom lots that start at $125,000, 325 acres of parks and 4 million square feet of commercial space.

Fought and Lehman, who have designed four courses and redesigned three others together, created a layout of 7,258 yards from the back tees, where it is a rigorous test. As with other Fought/Lehman designs, the bunkering is superb. Closely cropped collars mean errant shots are more likely to find fairway bunkers, but greenside bunker shots are easier to perform.

Perhaps the most enjoyable portion of the course is a three-hole stretch starting at No. 12, a par-4 dogleg left that plays at 433 yards from the tips, wrapping around the base of the mountains. It plays uphill and features a large fairway bunker that discourages cutting the corner on the left side. The green is situated in a box canyon.

No. 13 is a drivable par 4 but plays uphill to a green with a false front. Shots that clear the front portion must hold on a green that slopes from front to back into the base of the mountain.

The 14th is a par-3 that plays at 184 yards from the back tee and features an elevation drop of 60 feet.

Raven at Verrado marks the start of what figures to be a golf course boom in the West Valley. Three more courses are planned at Verrado, Trilogy at Vistancia is scheduled to open next month and as many as 10 other courses are in the planning stages.

"I think you're definitely going to see a boom in the West Valley," Lehman said. "That's where it's heading, and I'm very proud of this one."

Raven Golf Club at Verrado

LOCATION: 4242 N. Golf Drive, off of Verrado Way, Buckeye.

VITAL STATISTICS: Par 72; Four sets of tees, ranging from 5,402 to 7,258 yards; Rated at 73.8 with slope of 132 from back tees; Fairways and tees feature tiff 419 Bermuda grass; greens are tiff dwarf Bermuda, overseeded with poa trivialis.

COURSE TYPE: Public, desert-style layout with links-style greens.

GREEN FEES: $119 weekdays, $139 weekends, includes breakfast, lunch, range access and unlimited play. Memberships available.

AMENITIES: 2.5-acre, double-sided practice range; two practice greens; chipping green; 13,000-square-foot clubhouse with full-service restaurant, bar, boardrooms and retail shop.

TEE TIMES/INFORMATION: (623) 215-4334 or verrado.com.

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