News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


larry_munger

One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« on: January 15, 2004, 06:51:43 PM »
Indian Creek is my close second in Florida, have played Seminole, Indian Creek, Jupiter Hills (Hills), Old Marsh, TPC Sawgrass (in shotgun) and The Medalist. Can anyone give me a reason to play TBC over Indian Creek? Thank you.

rgkeller

Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2004, 07:03:07 PM »
The cheeseburgers are better at the Bears Club.

You might see Hank Kuehne there.
 
The stuffed bear is very impressive at Jack's place.

The Bear Club exhibits wonderful architecture - in the homes there.

The practice range is better at TBC.

The Bear's Club is the only golf course in the world where Gary Nicklaus is someone important.

larry_munger

Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2004, 07:12:02 PM »
thanks, guess that's one vote for IC :)

Mitch Hantman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2004, 07:20:10 PM »
Definitely Indian Creek

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2004, 08:30:37 PM »
I like Indian Creek a bunch but better than Pete Dye's TPC at Sawgrass?

As a pleasant, no hassle day of golf - sure.  But as a golf course??  Not a chance.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2004, 09:44:46 PM »
Where is Indian Creek? and who is the architect? Private or Public?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

wsmorrison

Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2004, 07:10:51 AM »
quassi,

Indian Creek is a club on a man-made island.  The Army Corps of Engineers dredged the intercoastal waterway and used the material to expand a very small island into a 300 acre island approximately 5 feet above sea level.  On top of this, William Flynn and Howard Toomey's construction company added silt and topsoil to a height of 32 feet in some places creating specific contours based upon Flynn's design specifications.  The design is highly sophisticated with ground contours that very much come into play.  

So why isn't IC well known?  It is ultra-private and they do not seek attention.  There is a great membership, they were very active in the recent Flynn Invitational at Glen View, and quite a number of really low handicappers.  It is one of the great old guard clubs in the south with an amazing clubhouse and an amazing 60' high locker room.

Although I have not been there as yet Tom and I will be down there soon.  We hope to revisit with some of the members we met at the Flynn Invitational.  Tom and I have studied a topgraphic map, Flynn's routing map, and individual hole drawings extensively.  Ron Forse, who wrote and is implementing the master plan has discussed the course at length with us.  We have more work to do, but I think we have a pretty good handle on the design features.  Thanks go to Joe Pantaleo, one of the country's outstanding superintendents and a heck of a golfer, for providing a wealth of information and consideration for our efforts.  

I think it is a marvelous design with tremendous green complexes, terrific mounding, skyline greens, outstanding lines and amazing original use of trees by Flynn for both framing and strategy (granted the proliferation of trees has gotten out of hand; ron Forse and the club are studying the removal of offending trees and tee lengthening, and bunker work).

Originally the course had a completely different look in the bunker surrounds.  They were not nearly so formalized as they are now.  Perhaps Flynn underestimated the tenacity of Bermuda grass.  Without constant edging, the grass would have  dominated the bunkers.  Flynn's design was for a bunker look much like the original Shinnecock, Atlantic City CC, and Boca Raton with less defined and shaggy edges.

The course is always in outstanding condition.  There are 60 acres of fairway and 80 acres of rough.  That's a lot of grass to mow.  The original design called for mansions surrounding the core golf course and many of Miami's elite have lived in them, including Don Shula, Julio Iglesias, Ray Floyd, and others.  Ray Floyd was on the committee that was in charge of the original master plan.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 07:12:31 AM by wsmorrison »

Robert_Walker

Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2004, 08:46:39 AM »
Sorry, but IC lies within the (INTRA)coastal waterway.
The Panama Canal is an (INTER)coastal waterway.
By the way, is anyone familiar with the golf course in Panama about which LeCarre wrote in the Tailor of Panama?

Doug_Feeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2004, 08:49:12 AM »
Larry,

You asked "Can anyone give me a reason to play TBC over Indian Creek?"

Yes.  Because you have not played it yet, and TBC is a very good golf course (surrounded by a spectacular facility).  It has a strong caddie program with a membership that plays a fair number of walking rounds, and it has been my experience that the golf course and greens are consistently in pristine condition.

Is it as interesting architecturally as Indian Creek?  I certainly wouldn't say that. But - you have already played Indian Creek and TBC is worth seeing. IMHO


SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2004, 09:06:59 AM »
What's IC a close second to ?

wsmorrison

Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2004, 09:11:39 AM »
Robert Walker,

Thanks for the correction.  Geography has never been a strong point of mine.

Regards,
Wayne

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2004, 10:54:24 AM »
 ;) :D 8)

It's -15 here at the Jersey Shore, so Palm Beach Municipal sounds like a great trip right now. As to Indian Creek, it is one of the neatest spots you will ever visit, a lot like Seminole in a lot of respects, and if a student of architecture, you get Mizner and Flynn , a pretty good exacta!

wsmorrison

Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2004, 11:09:42 AM »
archie,

While the clubhouse is indeed Mizner-esque, it was not designed by Mizner.  I can't recall who was the architect, but Ron Forse said it was not Mizner.  I'll try to find out who designed it.  But the course is a unique Flynn, that is for sure!

klangone

Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2004, 01:48:09 PM »
Indian Creek by a mile........Bear's Club is Nicklaus at his worst as far as I am concerned.  Seminole, IC and JHills are all right there.........as said before.....JHills is very underrated......

CharlestonBuckeye

Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2004, 10:58:22 PM »
I'd play Inidan Creek ten times before heading to The Bear's Club.  Thanks again to the gentlemen who afforded me the recent opportunity to play.

McCloskey

Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2004, 11:47:25 PM »
klangone

Pretty strong opinion about TBC.   Would you mind elaborating on why you disliked the course so much.  You thought this was Nicklaus' worst design or are you just not a fan of Nicklaus designs?
I am not a fan of Florida golf, but I thought it was one of the better Florida courses I have played.

MC

larry_munger

Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2004, 07:14:26 AM »
SPDB, Seminole is my fav by a wide margin, but IC and Jupiter Hills are both close seconds. JH from 6 on is really good, I don't however like 16 and 18.

Chip, I suspect TPC Sawgrass under different conditions would be there also, lots of interesting shots and angels.

Thanks, for everyones thoughts!

klangone

Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2004, 12:45:22 PM »
I just think Nicklaus courses are artificial........take away Muirfield and maybe his Colleton course, and what project really fits the land??

And I just don't like the concept of Bears Club.  But, I guess that is Florida golf......pay $350K+ to be a member at the new and shiny club.  I'll take IC, Seminole, JHills, Pablo Creek and TPC any day over TBC.  I group TBC with Isleworth together, lots of money, lots of million dollar homes, but short on the golf experience.

McCloskey

Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2004, 01:32:10 PM »
klangone

It sounds like your biggest problem is in the exclusiveness of the courses, and the $$ it takes to play there.
TBC was totally artificial because the land was a flat, scrub oak/pine parcel dotted with wetlands.   Everything had to be manufactured because the land was featureless.   The bias against Nicklaus seems apparent when you list TPC as one of your favorites, when I can't think of a more artificial, manufactured golf course in Florida.   However, I too, enjoyed TPC and Seminole each time I have played them.
To attempt to answer your question about Nicklaus courses that I think fits the description of fitting the land, let me just list a few of which I have played, and enjoyed.

Cabo del Sol
Great Waters
Governor's Club
Pinehurst National
Spring Creek Ranch
Diablo Grande
Mayacama
Snoqualmie Ridge
Chiracahua at Desert Mountain
Colleton River
Muirfield Village
Mayacama
Montreux
Melrose

Apparenly I have played quite a few more Nicklaus golf courses than you have, and in my opinion, none of these would come under the description of "not fitting the land."

MC


ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2004, 02:23:24 PM »
Larry Munger:

With all due respect, TPC Sawgrass in a shotgun format is still miles better than Indian Creek from the 1st tee.

Indian Creek is a wonderful golf experience - I can't wait to go back some day.  It also has at least 4 very good holes and a couple of green complexes that look like they inspired Flynn to take them to Shinnecock.

But hole-for-hole from a golf architecture perspective, I think TPC's in a totally different league - one of Pete Dye's finest, IMO

For what it's worth, I think Bay Hill is a better course, as well.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2004, 02:29:09 PM by chipoat »

larry_munger

Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2004, 03:21:23 PM »
Thanks Chip, guess I should someday get back there. So other good FL tracks to get to would include, Pine Tree, Bay Hill, John's Island, Pueblo Creek, World Woods and Mountain Lake. What else?

klangone

Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2004, 03:33:55 PM »
I did like the Whistler course up in Canada.......

I have no problem with "exclusive".....I just like low-key instead of bling-bling.

I did forget about Pine Tree.......very good layout......

And I love Dye.....so TPC is right up there in my book.......

Playing JHills tomorrow......stay warm everyone!

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2004, 04:51:59 PM »
Larry -
Among the ones you listed I would get to Johns Island (West) first. It is the true secret gem in FL. Among my favorite FL courses, it is right behind Seminole, and, on certain days, ahead of TPC.

Mountain Lake is also terrific, and probably more so following Silva's work (which I haven't seen).  

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2004, 06:55:23 PM »
Larry:

Ask Pat Mucci about Pine Tree and Tom Paul (among others) about Mountain Lake.

I hear good things about Black Diamond and Old Memorial.  Agree w/Sean B. re: Johns Island West.

Boca Rio has been an AOTD and Sr. Mucci can certainly tell you a lot about that!

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:One round, Indian Creek or The Bear's Club?
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2004, 06:44:21 AM »
Larry, don't know the Bear's Club, but I like Indian Creek alot, great angles, wind and push up greens.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back