Turnberry- Architecture

[Doug Wright]

mcarrion,

With all due respect, you must take what many of us here say with a grain of salt.  Primarily, because WE ARE purists.
This is a website full of people who LOVE good golf course architecture.

MDugger,

I said pretty much the same thing to newbie mcorrion offline just to give him a heads up about this site and its poseurs--I mean posters.  

mcorrion, If you're serious about this Turnberry thing I suggest you take a trip over there and look around. And hopefully your golf architect knows a little about it too.
Is the name Turnberry meaningful to your prospective buyers? You could use something more original like St. Andrews...

And I suspect this is not the "Royal Links" redux development called The British 18 at DIA out at Denver International Airport (Perry Dye not Pete--Pete wouldn't touch this with a 1000 foot pole--it's a copy of a copy, all 18 holes of the Royal Links just in a different order to fit the routing  ). As mentioned, this deal is on hold or dead, and I don't think it's a housing development course more likely office/hotel.

Best,

[Tim_Weiman]

Doug Wright:

I had a feeling similiar to yours: why Turnberry and, if so, shouldn't this fellow mcarrion go over and spend at least a few days there?

Don't know much about this theme thing and I get really turned off when something seems too fake.....just have a hunch that is where this project is headed.

Shouldn't the person in mcarrion's position be able to articulate why Turnberry IS a good fit? If he's the guy to execute, why is he asking us to describe Turnberry?

Seems backwards to me. Seems like it is destined to come across as phony......but maybe I just don't get it.....

[Mike_Sweeney]

mcarrion,

There was once this crazy golf course developer who wanted to recreate some of Scotland's great courses and holes. He built a course here in America and stuck a WINDMILL in the middle if it !! Can you believe that !! His name is CB Macdonald and the course is called National Golf Links of America in Southampton, NY. If you do a search on this discussion group, you will see in mentioned a few million times here at GCA  

Don't listen to these guys !! Sounds like the developer knows how to appeal to his client who is going to pay the bill, and it sounds like you have a head start on how to deliver the product. Don't be afraid to break the mold, as Tom Paul often says (paraphrase), it is a big world out there and there is room for lots of golf architecture. Good luck.

[Andy Hughes]

<<As I suggested above, it has been a while since I've been to Turnberry (mid/late 1980s). Hell, I can't even remember what Rich Goodale and others call the clubhouse.>>
Heh. I was thinking the same thing. I played there several times during the late 80s, and I'll be darned if I can remember a clubhouse at all! Maybe the view up the hill and out to sea grabbed all the attention....

[Brian_Gracely]

http://turnberry.co.uk/golf/clubhouse.html

Nice locker room, large pro-shop, casual dining room upstairs which overlooks the course.  Lots of pictures from past Opens and other competitions at Turnberry, and they have a decent collection of old clubs on display.  

[Tim_Weiman]

Brian,

Thanks. That building definitely was not there when I last was. There was a pro shop, but nothing that big.

Mike Sweeney:

I think I've heard of this guy Macdonald, but he didn't build a housing development, did he?

Ok, I'm being a wise ass. Sorry for that. But, don't you think mcorrion and/or his boss should be spending some time in Turnberry if they really want to re-create it? And why not pick a venue that has housing associated with it?

[mcorrion]

As I said earlier...
it appears that most of you are purists (and retired, obviously) and out of touch with the real development world.

Of course it is so easy and obvious to ridicule any imitation of a great place like Turnberry!!!  everyone knows that would be silly!!!

What we are looking for is subtle themes to lend a unique feel to this very Colorado development.   Every municipality in the expanding west is looking for this type of theming that is carried into the architecture, entry monuments, signage, etc.
Maybe that isn't happening in booming state of Louisiana  

We go through numerous city and county design submittals to ensure that new communities have a distict theme and are not just bland, "anywhere America suburbia"  Like it or not, this is the way this type of development works.  Personally, I do not like it but I know that we can do it better than the next guy.  (and inevitably, it WILL happen).   This is an interesting philosophical question that I welcome all opinions on.

But if you are a purist, then understand that development will hapen in places like Eastern Colorado, and that it is inevitable...  and that it does sell- and that is the bottom line that drives developers- like it or not.    So a person in my position can do one of two things- say screw you developer, and screw you working class family that wants (and badly needs) a modestly priced home, or say lets dig deep here and try to do the best we can with a limited budget.

By the way I have spent several weeks in this part of Scotland, so I do know the area...

[Tim_Weiman]

mcorrion:

Don't know if you care to stick around, but if so my advice would be to tone down comments like "out of touch with the real development world".

This is, after all, a golf architecture discussion site. To my recollection, there have been very few discussions about things such as clubhouses; it is not what people come here for.

But, I'll be nice and suggest that if you want a theme, how about something like Lahinch. Wouldn't it fit better, that is be more housing and community friendly?

[Marty Bonnar]

mcorrion,
whilst I am more than happy to accept your 'theming' premise, I am finding it difficult to understand why you'd want to take a 'Scottish' (or any other non-native) vernacular and simply attempt to transplant it into the wilds(?) of Colorado.

Surely the area has at least some historical building types and local materials which would lend themselves to a more sympathetic, authentic development?

I am just a little worried that your design will simply turn out to be more of a Brigadoon pastiche - one of my pet hates as a whisky-guzzling, kilt-wearing, hairy Scotsman! - of 'Bonnie Scotland', than a sensitive, attractively-designed community with its OWN identity...

For what it's worth though, the Hotel, Lodges and Clubhouse at Turnberry are indeed, as noted earlier, what I'd describe as 'Seaside Edwardian'. White walls, Red-tiled roofs, tall, narrow fenestration with lots of panes. Think Arts and Crafts with a touch of Art Deco. For my money, THE nicest golf hotel in the WORLD!

FBD

PS LOVED the (and retired, obviously) remark!!!! Whisper it, but some of the old buffers on here might actually still have something useful to contribute... FBD (age 43 and one-twelfth...)

[Dan Kelly]

What we are looking for is subtle themes ...

What says "Turnberry," to me:

Bagpipes.

A lighthouse.

An enormous rock out in the sea.

Tom Watson's cap.

Those red-tiled roofs of the "Seaside Edwardian" style identified by FatBaldyDrummer.

And that's quite a coincidence, because if I'm not mistaken, the "Seaside Edwardian" style originated on the American Great Plains!

Just joking, of course, but now serious: Is that Turnberry look native to Scotland -- or was it, too, a themed import ... designed to appeal to customers with a taste for that imported style?

[Tim_Weiman]

Mike Sweeney:

You are right. I should not said anything on the other thread. It would be best if the entire thread was deleted as outside the content requirements of the site. Every time I don't stay true to my own philosophy I regret it.

Now, regarding this Turnberry issue, I'll stand by my previous statement that a venue like Lahinch might provide a better theme than Turnberry. Both are oceanfront venues, but Lahinch is more of a community and that's what this developer seems to want.

I just don't get the Turnberry thing at all. Where's the working class community? How does that all fit together.

If I or others weren't welcoming enough, I regret that too, but at least mcorrion has the benefit of honest feedback.

[Brian_Gracely]

It would be good if mcarrion would throw us a bone about what is involved with "theme" in his project.  keep in mind that he's coming at this from a landscape architect, not course architect, viewpoint.  none-the-less, I can't think of any landscaping at Turnberry that is distinctive or even worth remmebering.  

this has been one strange thread and a great case of "shooting the messenger"....

[Tim_Weiman]

Brian:

Mike Sweeney is probably right. We might have been kinder to mcarrion.

But, e do need a bone, something more than "the developer needs a theme.....and wants Turnberry".

You still get the feeling that neither the developer nor mcarrion are really familiar with Turnberry, so again why Turnberry?

Part of my reaction is speaking recently with another developer who also wants a theme associated with his project. But, this guy seemed at least prepared to speak about it, that is why he chose the theme he did.

Don't see that here, so its hard to help.

[johnk]

I can't resist...


Here's a theme for you: Sheep.

Get some. Lots.  Put them around everywhere as you drive up to the Plainsland Turnberry-themed development.  Think green farmland full of sheep.

Now, for the audacious verisimilitude, make that drive into the development/golf place seem like about 40 mins of sheep farms with very little else.  Make it seem to the motorist that they've gotten lost - and there is no way they will reach a world-class, stunning Scottish-themed housing development, at the end of that drive, since the sheep seem to go on forever!  I think that can be done in colorado.  It may not be as green, or have as many trees - but there it is.

Name the development something like "Mull of Lambtyre".  You'll almost smell the Scottish breakfast sizzling as you follow the signs to the course: L on Ewecrag Rd,  Left on Muttonshire Ln., Right on Argyll Wool Dr. and someone will meet you at your car when you get to Loch of Three Bags Full Way.

If you really require any golf related themey-ness, the Ailsa is your course (to emulate).  Many holes there could easily be bordered by large boxy houses and it would not at all detract from the strategic nature of the course.  Few courses in Scotland can say the same.

For example, Hole 7.  It's like 470 yd, a uphill curving par 4.   The sides are rather slopey dunes, but if you dug down into the Colorado earth, and routed the hole like a canyon between two rows of houses, you'd have the feeling.

I hope I'm giving you a taste of what could be a great concept!