Turnberry- Architecture

[mcorrion]

Is Turnberry near the isle of Arran?

Could anyone tell me about the course and clubhouse architecture, and the landscape of that area in general?

I am a Landscape Architect looking for concepts, forms, and themes for a new golf course community in the plains just east of Denver, Colorado.  The owner wants to use Turnberry as the "theme".   Is there anything in the landscape that distinguishes this golf club?
thanks for your help

[Tim_Weiman]

mcorrion:

Unless things have changed, I don't believe Turnberry really has a clubhouse. Instead, the venue is well known for its beautiful hotel which sits up on a hill over looking the two courses and perhaps for its lighthouse.

Its really a hotel with golf, not a golf club per se.

Just go to Google and I'm sure you'll find pictures of the hotel.

Not sure I can think of a Turnberry "theme" to fit in Denver, Colorado.

[ForkaB]

mcorrion

Turnberry does have a clubhouse, a massive CCFAD-type structure that was buhilt in the last 10-15 years.  It also hosts a proper Golf Club, whose members have certain grandfathered rights vis a vis the owners of the hotel.  However........

......I lived in Colorado for 2 years and in Scotland for most of the past 15 years, and I cannot think of two more disparate land forms than Turnberry and the plains east of Denver.

Your client has a VERY vivid imagination.  Good luck!

[T_MacWood]

Turnberry is dominated by a large hotel that sits upon an elevated ridge overlooking the two golf courses. The golf courses are located on raised coastal platform with dunes (possibly man-made) that run parallel to the sea. The hotel was the first golf resort in the world (I believe)....I'd call its architecture Edwardian.

[bodgeblack]

During WWII, much of Turnberry was strangely just like a plain.
It was turned into an RAF Coastal Command training airfield. Many of the characteristic coastal dunes were flattened and most bunkers were filled in. Both the Alisa and Arran courses were covered in runways!

Still, I am not sure what is or has been there at Turnberry would sit very comfortably in the plains just east of Dever, Colorado.

Cheers

Jamie

[TEPaul]

"......I lived in Colorado for 2 years and in Scotland for most of the past 15 years, and I cannot think of two more disparate land forms than Turnberry and the plains east of Denver.
Your client has a VERY vivid imagination."

Rich:

Do you mean landforms as disparate and those imagined by Steve Wynn/Tom Fazio who designed and built a piece of Oregon in the Nevada desert?

[ForkaB]

Actually, Tom, no.....

Stevie and Tommie built a replica of the North Carolina sandhills in the desert (or so I am told).  There was no attempt there to even try to recreate the Irish sea, or Ailsa Craig, or even proper linksland.

Now, go back to studying Tom Morris and his influence on TOC.  You are behind in your lessons and Mrs. Grundy is going to throw you in a bunker if you don't learn how to behave!

[Andy Hughes]

The parts of the landscape that distinguish Turnberry are:
1. the hotel
2. the Ailsa Craig
3. the rocky coastline
4. Robert the Bruce's castle

So, if you can create a giant rock out in the water and happen to have an old castle, you are halfway home  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I do think a trip to the website will give you and your client a glimpse of what is different. Rich did note the obvious. However, What is the same? Hmmm the wind, stark treeless landscape, I would think you could have some the wild grasses that create some of the mood and feel that you find down in the dunes. Kiss the ocean views and the Craig goodbye. I hope you have a sand based soil to allow for the firm fast conditions which I hear is not limited to a wonderful area of Nebraska. I am not sure just east of Denver will have that though. I guess you could have poor service, the worst accounting department in the history of the hotel industry and a haughty attitude like the nice folks at Turnberry. But please do include holes like the omg great 5th, all the par 3's, and 16th.

[THuckaby2]

mcorrion:

Unless things have changed, I don't believe Turnberry really has a clubhouse. Instead, the venue is well known for its beautiful hotel which sits up on a hill over looking the two courses and perhaps for its lighthouse.

Just a minor correction, but Turnberry most definitely does have a clubhouse - it's large and rather nice, actually, sitting right down by the 18th greens of each of the Ailsa and Kintyre courses.  It also has a HUGE practice facility... It's a full-service golf resort most definitely.  The views are defined by the hotel on the hill, which is massive and impressive for sure, plus the lighthouse, castle, Ailsa craig... But maybe this is what the client is after - full-service golf resort?

If not, then Rich's post sums up the problems quite well!

TH

[Michael Dugger]

Is this land in Colorado linksland?  If not I must agree with those who have said that your client is asking for something that sounds rather creative (preposterous)  

There is no ocean in Colorado
If the site is not sand dunesy.......

Why Turnberry and not any other "genuine" linksland course, per se?

It sounds like a bad idea, yes, I'll be the asshole to say it.  

If you do go ahead with the "Turnberry" theme, what about "it" is different than Ballybunion, Dornoch, County Down or a Pac Dunes "theme"  

Sounds like a Royal Links to me.  I'd suggest checking into that course in Las Vegas.

If the land is sand dunesy why not look further into a Prairie Dunes or Sand Hills "theme"  

It might be a better fit

[TEPaul]

Rich:

Is the North Carolina sandhills more disparate from the Nevada desert than a piece of Oregon, or less so? And I didn't know they had little babbling brooks and a million different species of trees in the North Carolina sandhills.

I think perhaps it's you who should do some studying of Old Tom Morris and what those who knew him said about him and not me. And anyhow, I'm done with discussing off the wall hypotheticals that people post and then challenge everyone to disprove or else that hypothetical must be assumed to be true.

Perhaps the world is flat and those self serving idiots who said otherwise are liars!  

[Dan Kelly]

I don't know about the rest of you, but a lighthouse on the plains east of Denver appeals to my goofy side.

Reminds me of the tollbooth ("EXACT CHANGE ONLY") in "Blazing Saddles."

"Somebody's gonna have to go back to town and get a shitload o' dimes!"

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

I recall looking at some property east of Denver once, and on top of a hill in the middle of nowhere was an old one room schoolhouse, still with some old books and what have you inside.  While not a toll booth, it was hard to tell why it was there and how it had not collapsed over the years.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

http://www.turnberry.co.uk/

This'll give you an idea.

[mcorrion]

Well, that certainly provoked some interesting perspective!
Thanks for the input.

First of all, I have been to that area of Scotland, so I understand the obvious diffences between that landscape and that of the plains just east of Denver...  

And obviously no one can re-create a place like Turnberry.
It would be a disrespect to both Turnberry and to the historic eastern Colorado plains to take it too far...
But remember that Turnberry itself is only a man-made place.
The two areas do have some similarities- wind, grasses, rolling hills, sand soil (indeed) and solitude....
The lighthouse is an interesting thought- an architectural "folly"?   Large grey stone foundations and walls could be interesting...

Sadly enough the client doesn't care- that's up to me... and my responsibility to make it nicer than the next guy.  

[Matthew Schulte]

mcorrion:

Are you at liberty to share the name of the project or at least a more precise location?

I know Pete & Perry Dye were rumored to be under contract to build a links course with stacked sod face bunkers near the Denver International Airport.  

Any connection?

[TEPaul]

Dan Kelly(tm) said;

"I don't know about the rest of you, but a lighthouse on the plains east of Denver appeals to my goofy side.
Reminds me of the tollbooth ("EXACT CHANGE ONLY") in "Blazing Saddles."
"Somebody's gonna have to go back to town and get a shitload o' dimes!""

Dan;

Just thinking about "Blazing Saddles" makes me roar with laughter and how many years ago was that movie? Just the thought of Cleavon Little in lilly white duds leading the cowboys across the desert and all of them coming to a confused halt at the tollbooth in the middle of a vast desert.

It's probably necessary to have a modicum of humor in golf architecture---but what do you think---would Mel Brooks make a great golf architect or not?

What do you think the product would be of a partnership of the dictatorial Macdonald, the possibly anally exact engineering of Raynor and the madcap input of Mel Brooks? I think eventually Macdonald would have beaten Brooks to death with a 2 iron as Raynor looked on silently!

[Dan Kelly]

I think eventually Macdonald would have beaten Brooks to death with a 2 iron as Raynor looked on silently!

Accompanied by the music of Count Basie and His Orchestra -- with choreography by Dom "Stick out your tush!" DeLuise! God, almighty, what a funny movie.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I must confess there are so many great things to be done on the plains of colorado, this is not one of them. I noted the things in common earlier but why do something this does not make sense and more than likely will fail. For Gods sake man grab your client and shake him and and you till you get your senses back. (ADD Scotish accent) Yes Turnberry is man made but look a little deeper. If you had been there and really are a landscape architect you would not have even started this post.

[mcorrion]

Whatever you say "Tiger"!

You abviously don't understand the development world.  The problem is that the cities and municipalities require that theming be used.   I am not a purest- the colorado themes have already been exhausted...  sometimes it takes vision and creativity to create great places.

This development will be driven by the sale of homes there.  The homes will be modestly priced- we aren't talking about Turnberry here- we are talking about homes for real working class people.   I'm trying to do something intersting with a limited budget.

[Michael Dugger]

mcarrion,

With all due respect, you must take what many of us here say with a grain of salt.  Primarily, because WE ARE purists.  

This is a website full of people who LOVE good golf course architecture.  We have an inclination of the "development world" as you described it, but we don't like it.  It generally doesn't lead to good architecture and for the most part pollutes the great art form that we all so admire.

Of course there are a few examples of developments turned good.  I can't think of one off of the top of my head but I'm sure some development project has a nice golf course.  

You cited vision and creativity........a fellow by the name of Desmond Muirhead once had a lot of vision and creativity.  You will be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks his "themed golf courses" turned out as anything other than absurd.

I'd say this forum has provided you all that is unique about Turnberry, at least from the point of view you are looking for.  

Replicate Robert The Bruce's Castle.  Tell people the golf course was built over an old runway.  Otherwise, I suggest you look into what some of the other "themed courses" have come up with for inspiration.  

See Royal Links in Vegas, (Scottish golf comes to Colorado!)

Consult the various TOUR 18 courses, I think there is one in Texas.  Recreate the 12th at Augusta, AGAIN!  Tell the home owners they will play the same holes as THE MASTERS!

It frightens me that the cities and municipalities require that theming be used.  It's crazy.  What is this, Disneyworld?  

"where do you live, Bob, Adventureland or Fantasyland?"

Your client's selection of Turnberry is a tough one.  It's why I say "why Turnberry and not ANY linksland course?"  

St. Andrew's has its' double greens and is shaped like a shepards crook.

Carnoustie has quite an extensive network of "burns"

County Down and Dornoch are all about the remote setting.

Can you tell us some of your ideas so we might get a clue of what type of thing you are envisioning?

[billb]

I know Pete & Perry Dye were rumored to be under contract to build a links course with stacked sod face bunkers near the Denver International Airport.  

M:
I believe this was a Perry Dye project (Dye Designs out of Denver, no involvement with Pete Dye) that never came to fruition.

[Tim_Weiman]

mcorrion:

As I suggested above, it has been a while since I've been to Turnberry (mid/late 1980s). Hell, I can't even remember what Rich Goodale and others call the clubhouse.

But, I think it fair to say Turnberry is not a housing development. Indeed, the beauty of the place is how neat and uncluttered it is - not much to disturb your view while the hotel sits beautifully up on the hill and the lighthouse adds some interest out by the sea.

In short, "themes" might be part of development, but Turnberry and a housing development in Colorado don't go together.

You're in a tough position. It doesn't sound like your boss really knows Turnberry.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Cities and municipalities require that theming be used. That is a good one. I will find a new guy to ask at the ULI Golf/Real Estate conference next month if theming is required as a general rule of thumb or specifically in Colorado. It is not in Louisiana. Theming can be a good thing but is not required anywhere i know of. As noted, we tend to be purists on here, but you will find developers, builders, architects, supers, attorneys, writers and/or about every possible part of the industry represented on here. I do understand development. I spent part of yesterday afternoon advising a client on market issues and research needs for a golf combined with residental/commercial real estate project in south Louisiana.