You guys: I'm Stupid #1 - Pine Valley

[JakaB]

It is once again all about money and greed....to many members cause too much play...to many buisness deals being cut by the members partially through access to a great club.  Pine Valley could succeed financially with 5, 50, 150 or 250 members sitting near the center of the financial universe.   I don't think it was Crump's vision to have so much play that the architecture was to be bastardized.  

[SPDB]

Pat - I suspect #9 will soon come under the same scrutiny as #8, but for reasons wholly unrelated to the green.    

and 70 years ??, that's a little gratuitous.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tim Weiman
From pictures I have seen the snaad was indeed whiter fifty years ago.  It, however, was inditinguishable from the surrounding natural sand.  This looks artificial like mosts of Fazio's sand.  Fazio uses that sand on almost every course.  I played Shady Canyon in Irvine and the white sand was blinding in the sunlight.  There was a lot of natural sand in the area that he could havae used and the course swould have be much better to look at and play.
Years ago the ninth green had some significant maintenance problems.  The green needed to be torn completrely up.  The alertnated green was built so that play would not be uninterupped.  They tore the green up regrassed it with out missing a beat.  At least that is what my friend who is a member told me. They don't use it very much.  I have played PV ten or more times and haave yetto use it.  

The reason for the second green on eight is different.  The pitch marks were only part of the problem.  The amount of traffic on the smallish green made it difficult to maintain iin PV standards.  PV gets alomost as much traffic as a local muni.
 

[TEPaul]

Shiv:

Firstly, holes #8 and #9 don't have double greens, they have alternate greens. The alternate green on #9 was built in the 1920s and the reason is interesting.

The alternate green on #8 was built decades later and the reason that was done was to relieve the left green from constant pummeling from a large amount of play at PVGC at that time. The amount of play now is down from that time. The reason they built an alternate green on #8 ONLY to relieve the pummeling that green was taking and not on other holes is because the left green was the smallest on the course (less than 3,000sf). The right alternate green is now the smallest on the course (a few 100 SF smaller than the left 8th green).

[Brian_Gracely]

TEPaul,

So what's the interesting reason for the alternate green on #9?

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

What's gratuitous about 70+ years ?

JakaB,

I would disagree with you.
Pine Valley was designed for a unique purpose and I believe Crump had every intention of having the world test his creation.  That implies challenge, popularity and heavy usage.

# 8 green is a great green, but you have to walk single file to exit it.

In addition, if you would look at page 58 in Geoff Shackelford's book, "The Golden Age of Golf Design, the picture circa 1922 would seem to confirm that those small trees don't block the sunlight or prevent air circulation.

If you look at the more recent pictures that Carlyle posted, I think you could draw a conclusion that years of growth might have contributed to agronomic and maintainance problems with the extremely small and narrow 8th green.

Building an alternate, relief, green seems prudent to me, especially since the precedent for an alternate green was established 70+ years ago at Pine Valley.

Shivas, I've played both greens at #9 at Pine Valley many times and enjoy the variety that the two greens present tactically and otherwise.  There is nothing weak or architecturally lacking in the hole irrespective of which green is in play.  And, I find the same is basically true at # 8.

I think you guys are making much ado about nothing.

And, with respect to the alternate green at # 9, where has your criticism, and everybody else's criticism been hiding for the last 70+ years ?

Or is it the Fazio name that gets everybody's attention ?  

[T_MacWood]

An even more dramatic before and after contrast could be shown at #2 and #18.

[ian]

Brian,

"but looking at the slope of the fairway (appears to go slightly to the right), is the approach to either green all that similar? Normally, that type of lie would often produce a shot that flies slightly right, and the trouble right of the greens appears to be significantly different.  Or are you just talking about the distance and general size/shape of the greens?"

Your right (my bad) it is a different shot because the right green is played from below your feet and the right green is more of a straight downhill approach; but I was taliking more about the demands of the green (size and bunker placement)

Pine Valley is much more open in person than it appears in photos.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian Andrew,

For years I layed back on # 8 off the tee, then Jay Sigel or another superior golfer informed me that if you could reach the upslope at the foot of the fairway, it would leave you with the ideal lie with which to approach the green.

I think it's a worthwhile strategy.

Jaka B,

Land constraints for one.
Cost for another.

You didn't even know that # 9 had a second green so how objectionable could this feature have been, after all this time, no one seemed to object to it, and no one even brought it to your attention.

Maxwell's work has been well received, few knew he even worked at Pine Valley.   But, suddenly, Fazio builds an alternate green and it's deemed, automatically bad, yet, the very next hole has had an alternate green for 70+ years and few, if any, objected to the concept.  If the concept was successful and accepted by everyone for the last 70+ years at # 9, why is the concept and its success at # 8 suddenly questioned by "Johnny come latelies" ?

Disengenuousness
Bias  

TEPaul,

Was the sixth hole ever under consideration for an alternate green, or just another green at another site ?

[Carlyle Rood]

Just to stir the pot up a little:

(a) Pictured below is the 9th hole at Pine Valley--featuring alternative greens that do NOT mirror eachother.

(b) Browsing Pine Valley's club history, I discovered an early construction photograph of the 9th WITHOUT an alternative green (on the right).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Carlyle,

Early photos suggest that # 9 may have been a skyline or hybrid skylline green.

I wonder if those adept at computer graphics could remove the treeline from behind the 9th green ?

P.S.  There is nothing wrong with stirring the pot, in fact, it is
        an admirable practice  

[A_Clay_Man]

Time to make the doughnuts.

Pat- You should hear yourself talk about everybody not saying anything for 70 years.

The exclusivity of PV makes everybody, nobody(in numbers). And, if you wanted to be invited back, or you didn't want to say something negative, an exclusive golf course would be a good time to keep traps shut, no?

[TEPaul]

Pat asked:

"TEPaul,
Was the sixth hole ever under consideration for an alternate green, or just another green at another site?"

The original Crump green was app. 20 yards short, squarer and not on a diagonal as the present green is. The original Crump green was also severely sloping from right to left cutting down too much on pin positions.

In the early 1920s Alison carried out Crump's intention to move the green farther back. The present green is Alison's adaptation. It appears that Crump intended to move the green perhaps up to 20-30 yards farther back than even the present green's position as he cleared up to 50 yards behind the original green for the purpose of eventually moving the 6th green back near the end of the ridge (Parrish's house).  

The tee shot options on this hole make this tee shot one of the best I've ever seen but once that's accomplished I can see Crump's point that the second shot is too short. Another 30 yards on the second half of this hole to a green such as Alison's at the end of the ridge would've made this hole really awesome throughout!

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

It would be nice if you knew what you were talking about regarding Pine Valley, but you don't.

Even Jaka B complained about heavy utilization, blaming it on corporate types.

Pine Valley may be exclusive, but play has been so heavy that they've implemented restrictions over the years to cut down on play, especially OUTSIDE PLAY

In addition, due to the soil conditions and micro climate, Pine Valley can get year round play, play not availiable to many clubs just a little further north in New Jersey, which equates to more golf and more golfers.

Stick to a club you're familiar with.

With respect to being invited back to a club, I've never had a problem in the past and doubt that I will have any problems in the future, but more importantly, I can unequivically state: that at this particular point in my life,
I'm not concerned about being invited back to any club.

[JakaB]

Even Jaka B complained about heavy utilization, blaming it on corporate types.

Pine Valley may be exclusive, but play has been so heavy that they've implemented restrictions over the years to cut down on play, especially OUTSIDE PLAY

Am I wrong and what is the culture of this club that allows too many members and too much play.   I would sincerely love to know because it would be a huge blow to my happiness if it happened where I play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jaka B,

Build a great one and they will come.
Build a bad one and you'll file chapter 7.

If you build a world class golf course, don't you think it will attract golfers from all over the world ?  In numbers ?

Just look at the recent addition of Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, and how golfers come from everywhere to play these courses.  Pine Valley is no different, except for public access.

Pine Valley's attractiveness is its uniqueness as a golf course, not its exclusiveness as a golf club.

[JakaB]

Pat,

Don't make this difficult...Why do they have too many members and too much play.   Excess is not a result of greatness.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jaka B,

You answered your own question in a previous post.

You've never played Pine Valley, but are very desirous of doing so.

Why ?

It's not because of the membership roster.

It's because of the uniqueness and greatness of the golf course.  A golf course where little has changed to the original and basic architecture over the last 80+ years.

Well, you're not alone.
Everybody wants to play Pine Valley.
And, everybody tries to make the connection to get there.

Considering that the membership is National and International, it's not a large membership, certainly not a large resident membership.  But, everybody wants to play there, to test themselves, to see and test the golf course.

Didn't Tommy Naccarato, after missing the DA on # 10, purposely drop a ball into the bunker to test it, and himself ?

Why, because it's legendary, as is the golf course.

Woody Platt's legend,
The bet that you can't break 100 or your handicap plus X,
The bet that you can't carry from # 15 tee to # 16 green,
The bet that you'll three or four putt, that you won't finish a hole or holes,
That you won't carry # 5.

I could go on and on.

The club and golf course are unique in American if not International golf, and there is nothing wrong with the membership or quest play that cutting down a few more trees wouldn't fix    

[TEPaul]

Somebody thinks PVGC has too much play from strictly member play? That's ridiculous!

The right green on #9 was suggested and designed by Alison as the most inexpensive way to correct the problems of Crump's original green (in the same basic position as the present left green). Alison further recommended this would allow the left Crump green to remain in play while the new green to take it's place was built--obviously implying that when the new green was built on the right the old green would be removed. The club accepted this recommendation but obviously at some point decided not to remove the left green and eventually Perry Maxwell reworked the left green into what it is today.

It's believed the right green was built by Flynn and Thomas to Alison's specifications. The other oddity is the redesign of the original left #8 Crump green. The club accepted the redesign of that green by Alison but for some reason that too was put off until eventually Maxwell came in and redesigned left #8 to his own redesign specifications (unlike Alison's).

[Carlyle Rood]

Why do they have too many members and too much play.   Excess is not a result of greatness.

From "Pine Valley Golf Club: A Chronicle," the membership is composed of the following (as of 1982 when the book was published):

250 Resident Members (within 60-mile radius)
435 Non-Resident
40 Guest Privilege (young men of golfing ability to provide good membership for the future)
185 Retired Members (former regular members with restricted privileges)
2 Honorary Members (ex-President Gerald Ford, Bob Hope)
2 Members for +50 years (no dues)

Total: 999 members of all classifications

Exceptions: No quota for overseas members

There seems to be one opening for an Honorary Member.  Any ex-Presidents or 100-year-old entertainers on GCA?

[Joe Hancock]

How can a course be exclusive AND overwhelmed with play??

Joe

[TEPaul]

PVGC is not overwhelmed with play---who's saying it is? There was a time a good while ago play was getting pretty excessive and members were having a bit of a tough time but no more. Plus PVGC has Lenny and nobody in the world knows how to format people onto a golf course better than Lenny. I think Lenny should run the USGA Competition Committee as a sideline--he could do that better than anyone in the world in his spare time!