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ian

Re:What would you do?
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2004, 10:06:55 AM »
Dick,

I'm glad that you took what I wrote as humour. ;D

 I do agree with the idea of collecting more opinions and more ideas to rrive to better answers. I like to ask the opinions of certain members and of people in our office. I recently had a job that needed holes moved and asked everyone in the office to offer their alternative.

The problem with putting something on ASGCA is as follows:
1. the clubs would not like this scrutiny
2. architects would not willingly put themselves under this scrutiny
3. some of the expressed opinions are not nessassarily held by management ;D

Think about how uncomfortable a few clubs have been with the opinions on this site.

Lastly let's use Merion. It is often written about as a disaster by some, yet I know a couple of people here who like the work. As Tom MacWood has pointed out if you don't have all the facts how can you offer an opinion.

To have an opinion:

1. you would have to walked the site with the membership (and architect)
2. know the complete history and understand the origional architect
3. know the superintendent's issues
4. know the financial structure and goals of the club.

You aren't going to get these wilingly from a club.

Just my thoughts.


Oh yeah, when can we meet to talk stocks? ;D



ian

Re:What would you do?
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2004, 10:23:01 AM »
Tim,

"the Green Committee appears to have very little background to evaluate the first (expensive) proposal"

Offer your help as an outside opinion. A renovation can be over 10 years too, so cost should not be the only reason.

"Given that a significant member assessment would be required to finance such a proposal"

Is it a good plan or not? Answer that first.

"at least one Green Committee member – and some of his closest friends (who are also long term members) – want to step back a bit, in part because he candidly admits he doesn’t know how to evaluate such a proposal."

If they can't assess it, ask for more details. Your friend has done the right thing by seeking outside help. There are probably members who can assess this, and may be a few more should be brought into the loop. I always suggest the master plan and images are posted (partially so I can deal with feedback before a general meeting - partially because I personally think all members are entitled to know whats going on)

"Getting involved is certainly not something I pursued. The personal relationship is close and if it turns out to be a big political football, I doubt I’d even want to recommend a name for them to speak to. But, if they are serious about re-thinking the overall direction, then I wouldn’t mind facilitating contacts."

Get involved, your friend asked, I'm still not sure why your so hesitant.

"One other thing: this club recently spent a fair amount of money on an irrigation system. While the proposal would utilize much of the existing routing, even the irrigation project would have to be re-done, to some extent."

That's there fault for not doing a master plan first, thats just bad planning. If the plan is great, then it will be a mistake they pay for in the future. If money is a huge issue, then I doubt holes are moving.

"Slowing down a bit and getting a professional second opinion seems like the prudent thing to do – especially for a group that didn’t even seem to realize they could do so. If my coaching just accomplishes that, I won’t feel bad at all."

I agree with the sentiment. If a board is unsure, then they should defer to a new board who is more capable of making a decision, or form a master plan committee to take more time to understand the proposal. One thought, why not an information meeting to explain the plan. Let the members feedback be collected and published by the club in the form of a survey. You will get a feel for the mood of the club and the feelings towards such a radical change. The will have to make the final decision, so why not include them earlier in it?

Tim, As I have stated before, you should have no hesitation in offering an opinion.

Ian

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do?
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2004, 11:50:52 AM »


Ian

My club did a pretty extensive member survey getting opinions on everything from the squash courts to the golf course.  The member recommendations on the golf course were downright scarey (add water feature, faster greens, more trees, eliminate blind shots).  

Soliciting these opinions does nothing to get a  proper restoration done.  In fact, it gives ammo to an unscrupulous architect to make recommendations designed to "get the job" rather than restore the course.  






Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do?
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2004, 12:11:40 PM »
Ian Andrew:

I share your view that most clubs will not be comfortable with a public discussion of plans for their golf course. That's why Tom Paul's often staten desire for GCA to become more of a resource is a difficult thing. Difficult but not impossible, I hope.

My effort has been to try to share enough details to make discussion here possible, but to withhold anything that I think would confirm the actual club/location.

Hopefully, saying that the course is a private country club designed by one of the big names in the history of golf architecture is vague enough.

FYI, I'm not hesitant to get involved to some degree. I was happy to read the long term plan and offer my initial feelings. I'm also happy to plan a full one day visit to walk the course, review the plan in detail and have discussion over dinner with the Green Committee member and two other long term members.

Where I am hesitant is with the next step: do I make a recommendation on an architect for a second opinion? And, if so, who do I recommend?

Finally, you encouraged me to first evaluate whether I think the plan is a good one. My first thought is NO. I see it a classic make work, a plan to spend lots of money to accommodate a small group of members by adding 300 yards. But, I am curious about my friend's perception that the original architect may not have fully utilized the natural features of the property.

That's something I'll really want to study.
Tim Weiman

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What would you do?
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2004, 12:51:11 PM »


Ian

My club did a pretty extensive member survey getting opinions on everything from the squash courts to the golf course.  The member recommendations on the golf course were downright scarey (add water feature, faster greens, more trees, eliminate blind shots).  

Soliciting membership surveys is a sign of weak or no leadership at a club.

Soliciting these opinions does nothing to get a  proper restoration done.  In fact, it gives ammo to an unscrupulous architect to make recommendations designed to "get the job" rather than restore the course.  

Proof that the concept of surveys at a club is a bad idea.
If you want to have fun, send a similar survey out about the interior design and decorations at the club.  That will keep them busy and their focus off the golf course for about ten years.


ian

Re:What would you do?
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2004, 02:38:19 PM »
Lads,

You take the survey after you present the ideas to get their feedback. Often a follow-up set of answers to the questions goes a long way in explaining the rationale.

Tim,

"Where I am hesitant is with the next step: do I make a recommendation on an architect for a second opinion? And, if so, who do I recommend? "

Recommend who you think that should do it, there is nothing wrong with you recommending another set of architects. There is only a problem if you then recommend yourself ;D like one of the Ross Society members once did.

Let me know what you end up recommending, I'm more curious about how it goes, rather than learning the people involved.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do?
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2004, 02:44:34 PM »
What's missing here is that everyone in the process - (please remember its a prcoess, not just the ego filled architect coming in with a self serving proposal, presumably after trying to get a feel for what the club wants) has a perspective.  

Tim's perspective may be towards restoration.  The bulk of the committee may have decided to "toughen the course against technology - tradition be dammed, I didn't pay my dues 80 years ago, I'm paying them NOW!) His friend on the committee may be to save the money of restoration or renvoation because of his financial situation (if not him, then every club has many members like that)  

The second architect, IF brought in by a only a faction of the greens committee, would almost certainly be under some pressure to offer a differing opinion from that of the first, although I am reminded that Shinnecock Hills brought in another architect to review Flynn's Redo plan, and he basically said, "Not much to improve."

And certainly, any input from otherwise uninvolved members of the golf community (aka Golf Club Atlas) would add more questions to the mix.....

All these perspectives are what make getting anything done so difficult at many clubs, no matter what that might be.  Because members love their club and course they are more afraid to make a mistake.

The proper process should be to generally decide the parameters of what you want done, via a wide membership survey, (although I've conducted those for clubs, and the results are usually murky) before hiring an architect, then hiring an architect after a good interview process, and then trusting him/her and your greens committee (a nice cross sectional representation of the golfing membership) to do the right thing, which may be different at every club.

Of course, it doesn't happen that way, and even the relatively small greens committee probably will have many differences lingering throughout the process.  Or, one may have wanted to hire another arhcitect, but got outvoted.  Or may be holding out for a pure restoration, "except that I always wanted to change hole no. 8....."

How the direction of the program comes out is as much a result of the personalities of the clubs as it is the architectural merit of the course, and I don't know if thats good or bad, but thats just what happens.  The green committee and its flag bearer need to come out of the master plan process united and sell the program they have decided is proper to the membership.  If they come out of the process united in the opinion that they "needed a mulligan" by virtue of the knowledge they gained in the process of hiring an architect and developing a plan, then of course, they should tell the first architect that his skill set is not what they decided on, and find one that better suits them.  

BTW, this happens fairly frequently.  Most clubs have had a number of architects work for them, usually for the wrong reasons, as they often decide to make the cheapest changes possible, often shopping around until they find an architect (or agronomy consultant) to tell them what they want to hear.  Then, after the changes don't work out, they blame the architect!  The old saying "the pride of low price is soon overridden by the bitterness of low quality" may not have been invented to describe most golf course renovations, but it is apt for many. Ideally, you trust your architect, and stay with them through the duration of the project.  

All the ASGCA code of ethics demands is not going in when an architect is under contract.  As a rule, I usually request a client notify the other architect before I go on the property, and I try to make sure the obligations to him are met before accepting assignment.  As an exception, if a club was hiring a second architect to review the first, I think they would only have to notify the first and have him agree, and then provide him the review material of the second if he did.

Again, however, I don't know that in most cases, getting yet another subjective opinion would help the process.

In any event, Tim, I would hate to see you get involved if its a case where your friend needs to accept that outcome of his process, even considering it may not be the solution he had in mind, and stay within the confines the club laid out for making a difficult decison.  Although he may vehemently disagree on the need to change the course, and think he is "saving the club", if the process  is well along, and your friend disagrees with it, at some point he must go along, methinks.  While every one is well intentioned, they can defeat the democratic process most clubs in the good ole US of A use to decide such things.  Getting "more information" from another source isn't likely to help matters, based on my experience.  The process, like politics, is inherently messy, and everyone involved has to display an amazing amount of maturity, wisdom and grace to be successful.  

Having said all that, I of course don't know the particulars of the individual situation, so my comments are likely to be way off base.   I should follow my own advice!  

Just my .02.....and only because you asked!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do?
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2004, 04:07:58 PM »
Noticed that this thread seemed to be stuck at "Number 4" posiiton, and the last post hasn't updated from Tom Doak.  Hmm, perhaps he really is the last word on architecture.....

Hope this gets past the computer glitch the site seems to have today....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do?
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2004, 04:56:50 PM »
Jeff Brauer:

First, thanks for your comments. Perhaps I didn't explain my friend's perspective very well. He hasn't made up his mind at all. Actually, he liked some of what the architect proposed. But, he also hadn't heard anything from someone approaching the issue from a much different - and more conservative - point of view, i.e., someone who doesn't believe in spending millions of dollars just to accommodate a small group of members concerned about length.

That's part of the problem. A Green Committee with very little background in golf architecture sheepishly gets dazzled by an architect who wants to spend lots of their money.

After talking with him and another long term member, he agrees they need to slow down and perhaps get another opinion. In fact, this club may need to have some work done. I’ll reserve judgment on that until a full day site visit. But, we need to move the industry away from just throwing money at courses because of technology “improvements”.

Technology is supposed to lower costs, not make goods or services more expensive.

Ian Andrew:

Don't worry about me. I'll be getting a free dinner. That's all....except, perhaps, becoming unpopular with the architect who want to spend lots of money.
Tim Weiman

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do?
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2004, 07:00:06 PM »
Tim,

First, I notice that according to the forum, Tom Doak still has the last word! :o

The only thing I assumed from your description was that your friend rotated on to the greens committee just after the completion of the master plan you described.  In that position, its again very natural to try to do whats best for the club, and get up to speed on what your committee has recently done.  I just didn't know if the plan had been approved, or if he was asked to approve it at the first meeting, etc.  

It's not unusual for the better players to hold sway over the architectural changes at a club.  Often, memberships assume they know best.  And, not knowing the two abandoned holes in question, its not all that unreasonable to think someone would want to expand a 6300 yard course.  For better players, (and anyone in citywide competition who cares about their handicap, and thus course rating) adding a bit of length sounds reasonable.  Its always best to do it with tees only, and it sounds like you think the two short holes had great character despite their length.

I like to say you can tell me what you want to spend, and I'll tell you what you get, or you can tell me what you want, and I'll tell you how much it cost.  Or, we can, as most clubs do, work somewhere to the middle.  In other words, with a reptutable architect, you really shouldn't need a second opinion, because he should have provided you with that, and perhaps a third opinion, for the general program (redo vs restoration, vs sympathetic restoration) and specific ideas (even if rerouting for length is accepted, he probably presented a few options for the club to explore) and even budget (here is the Mercedes, here is the Chevy) and even phasing (all in one year up to ten years) so the club can decide what is best for them, given his professional recommendations.

I would have (and I think most architects would have) probably gotten a list of the clubs goals, and then presented a high, medium, and low cost proposal in the preliminary stages.  Or, he may have gotten strong direction in the analysis phase to add length, and then presented the cost estimate for that.  

While I grant you that there is more money for the architect in during the construction phase of larger projects than small ones, he probably got a lump sum fee for the master plan (the number $25K has been thrown out) to make his best recommendations to the club, with no guarantee of what the final number may be.  At least in the first phase, he should be objective about the clubs needs, and the ASGCA ehtics code does provide that we work in the clients best interests.  

In fact, from my perspective, the architects who also have construction divisions are the ones you may favor, but which also have the greatest potential for conflict of interest, not ones who do master plans for a lump sum.  Obviously, some disagree.


Of course, we are spending someone elses money, and "best interests" is subjective.  

Is it in a clubs best interest to rebuild aging green structures that have grown grass fine, but whose reduced drainage and increased compaction will make it difficult in the next, inevitable overly hot summer?  Or is it in the best interest to be surprised one year, and have to scramble, perhaps paying premium contractors prices for emergency rebuilding?  From experience, many architects would recommend the rebuilding, based on the experiences of other clubs.  The club doesn't have to accept, of course, but while it may be a bit like doctors overprescribing medical tests just to be sure, some architects may prefer a wholistic approach, and truly believe its in the best interest of the club.  

I wouldn't necessarily assume if I were your friend that a reputable architect is selling them down the river to make a few extra bucks.  Too many of those, and we wouldn't be in business in the long run!  

I also like to tell clients that in renovations, if you are going to try to solve a problem, then really solve it, whether thats play issues, like length, safety issues, or technical issues like trouble growing grass on your greens.  No one will remember what it cost in a year, but they will sure know if they spent a dime, and come back next year with the same problem.

Again, for not knowing the course, I suspect that it really does have some technical problems (given modern standards) in a lot of areas, and rebuilding greens, tees and drainage to provide better growing conditions may be warranted.  
but, all of those things should have been tested and analyzed during the master plan process, and factored in to the master plan before the cost proposals/estimates were done.

Actually, for $3Mil, if they have to rebuild large parts of the irrigation, the proposal sounds reasonable for an 18 hole rebuild.  I know total rebuilds that have cost $4 and up.  So, perhaps the architect wasn't proposing the moon after all.

Sorry for ignoring Brad Kleins urging to shorten and edit, but I must go pick up my son from the golf course - a club that I have both as a membership and a remodeling credit!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do?
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2004, 08:13:41 PM »
Jeff Brauer:

Responding to some of your points/questions:

1) My understanding is that the club is at least six months away from approving the proposal.

2) The middle tees - where 95+ percent of the members play are 6,300 yards. The back tees are in the 6,650 range.

3) Don't know if the architect presented various - high, medium, low cost - options. Again, my sense is that a contingent of members focused on length pushed that issue.

4) Honestly don't recall the master plan citing many "technical" reasons for re-building greens. My recollection is that the architect said the greens were "dated". I'm not sure what that means.
Tim Weiman

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do?
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2004, 10:11:37 PM »
Tim,

I also think that the green committee should be reminded that they represent more than special interests, themselves or even the present membership.  They represent those who have gone before them and legacy they have left.  They also represent those who come after who will play the course and the debt they might incur.  Unless there is some compelling reason ie. preparae the course for some tournamentetc. they might be better off upgrading the sand in the bunkers, conditioning, enlarging some teees,say on par threes that get a lot of wear and tear.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do?
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2004, 10:17:21 PM »
The most essential two ingredients are:

1. Is the golf architect right for the work?

2. Does the club respect the architect? — And do both club and architect truly enjoy each other enough to build a lasting relationship?

- - -

The cost of the architect is, as I've said before, peanuts to the process if the above two questions can be answered positively.

- - -

The only mid-ground solution I've seen is where a club pays two or three top contenders a modest fee to draft their ideas and present an approach.

- - -

Ian,

So long as the club places an architect "on hold" or otherwises alerts him that they are seeking a second opinion, I see no reason why the work would not be ethical to accept. I would certainly communicate clearly in this case so there is no misunderstanding.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

ian

Re:What would you do?
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2004, 10:23:10 PM »
Forrest,

We agree on that.

As I tried to get accross to others before, as long as the original architect knows whats going on, everything is fair.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do?
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2004, 10:39:45 PM »
Well, I'm glad you don't mind because I'm headed that way to second guess all your current work buddy!

- - -

Tim — Good luck to your friend. Please keep Ian and I in mind.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

ian

Re:What would you do?
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2004, 10:52:36 PM »
Forrest,

With all the major surgery required, you may have to become Canadian. ;D

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do?
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2004, 11:53:18 PM »
Forrest:

Is the architect right for the work?

I doubt it. But, more than that I think the club really needs to slow down and think about what makes sense architecturally and financially. They need to get beyond just being dazzled by an architect who apparently talked a good game to a group with apparently very little exposure to golf architecture.

Does the club respect the architect?

My sense is that they do, at least for now. That's because they have only heard one point of view and don't know how to put it into perspective. Given that this Green Committee apparently hadn't even considered getting a second opinion before presenting the membership with a $3 million dollar plan, you can see the level of sophistication isn't very high.


Tommy W:

To my knowledge, this club has been the site of area women’s tournaments and occasionally a seniors’ event, but nothing of stature (even regionally or locally) for men. That is partly why I’m so opposed to spending $3 million to do surgery on the course. This just isn’t a venue that has or should have any aspirations for significant tournaments.

That aside, the course may need some work. As I mentioned earlier, the club began thinking the real issue was bunkers, but also wanted a long range plan. Then – it seems to me – they got diverted to considering major surgery and were encouraged to consider spending a lot more money.

Ian Andrew:

I’m all for letting the architect know a second opinion is being sought.
Tim Weiman

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do?
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2004, 11:54:19 PM »
...if , after the initial downstroke [25,000 whatever for prelim] ,and the members as a whole don't feel warm and fuzzy,the club should be able to move on .....and contracts should be drawn this way.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2004, 04:43:46 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do?
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2004, 06:36:09 AM »
Tim — Well, good luck. I hope the two main points I stress can be attained.

Ian — Please send a Canadian spy to find out more about Tim's friend's club. Once we land the work I'll pay you CAN. $ to perform the work and I'll pocket the U.S. $ differential. OK?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

TEPaul

Re:What would you do?
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2004, 08:15:57 AM »
I haven't exactly read every word of this thread but giving even solicited advice to a club for such as us, or Tim Weiman, can be tricky business. My advice to Tim is to see what the club is trying to accomplish and why. Once you've figured that out try to put them in touch with other clubs who've already accomplished well the things they might be trying to do. You might also put them in touch with other clubs who made mistakes trying to do the things they're trying to accomplish. These two steps can certainly lead the club to the type of architect who'll probably work out best for them--and those that won't. All this is merely collaboration---one of the most important initial techniques in this entire world of golf architectural restoration, rennovation, redesign, whatever. I can think of so many clubs I know of who in retrospect wish they'd done this.

Tim Weiman said above;

"I share your view that most clubs will not be comfortable with a public discussion of plans for their golf course. That's why Tom Paul's often stated desire for GCA to become more of a resource is a difficult thing. Difficult but not impossible, I hope."

Using this site is difficult generally because most clubs don't feel like being criticized by people who basically are no different than their own membership but who don't know their course very well, don't know their membership at all etc.

But it's not impossible. One club, Fox Chapel, has looked in on here and picked out a number of ideas quietly without actually participating on here. But I have a sense that if I asked them to participate on here they probably would have! They've also asked numerous people for opinions, and they simply filtered it to get the best of what they think works best for them. All this is basically after a completed restoration and looking for some opinions following membership feedback--some of which wasn't positive. Obviously Fox Chapel has the intelligence to pick out those bits of advice that work best for them and drop the rest. They used Golfclubatlas positively, although obviously in a very limited way.

As to some allegiance to an architect? They don't really seem to have any. Their architect knows they seek advice elsewhere obviously because they told him. They had or have a contract with him but they didn't marry the guy for God Sakes! How architects get into other architect's business may have an ethical standard but the club doesn't have to conform to some ASGCA standard---that's for sure.

But the advice a club gets from whomever isn't the story really---its what those receiving advice make of it and do with it that's important. And although it may hurt our architectural sensibilities the success of a master plan is something for any club's membership to determine when it's done! For any club starting out on a master plan my advice would be to get out there and find the clubs that've done what they want to do before them and learn from what others did right and what others did wrong! I call that collaboration!

That's where I think you might help this unnamed club, Tim. Try to lead them to other clubs so this one can see what a master plan is all about and how to do it right and how not to do it wrong.




Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do?
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2004, 09:34:22 AM »
Tom Paul:

Thanks for checking in and for your feedback. At this point I don't plan to do anything else until I've spent a day on site with my friend(s) and get a more detailed understanding of the various issues they face. Then I'll decide what, if any, further input I might have including recommendations on architects or other clubs they might contact.

As for the entire process being "tricky", I'm sure it is. In fact, it was my immediate worry. But, then I decided to simply be upfront on my point of view. My friends know that I've played the course several times. They know I have a feel for the club. Finally, they know me very well and my predisposition to a conservative - restoration oriented - point of view.

Tom, I do have an interest in their situation, but it is their club and they will have to decide on next steps. All I can do is help make them aware of options other than rushing into the first big dollar plan they have been presented. After that, it probably means stepping back and letting them run with it, unless they'd have an ongoing interest in a sounding board.

But guys like Ian Andrew should have no worry: I don't need to play architect!
« Last Edit: January 12, 2004, 02:19:13 PM by Tim_Weiman »
Tim Weiman

ian

Re:What would you do?
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2004, 01:32:52 PM »
Tim,

"But guys like Ian Andrew should have no worry: I don't need to play architect!"

You've obviously assumed I'm more interested in protecting my position as an architect and missed my one and only point, which is:
 
I only care that the first architect is properly notified about any change or review.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do?
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2004, 02:18:28 PM »
Ian Andrew:

I share your view that the architect should be notified in the event the board decides to seek a second opinion. For now, however, it seems premature. No formal decision has been made. It is no further than a couple long time friends getting together for a day to discuss a subject of mutual interest.  

My best guess is that my friend will decide he wants a second opinion, but first he would have to convince the entire board. Not knowing any of the other personalities on the board, I have no idea what their feelings or actions might be.

Tim Weiman