News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Maxwell and Mackenzie - what they taught each other
« on: August 01, 2014, 05:12:41 PM »
What did Perry Maxwell teach Alister Mackenzie about design, and what did Mackenzie teach Maxwell?  That' a fascinating Q to me.  Just as fascinating as the dichotomy of the two nines at Crystal.

Here's some of my article on Old Town that looks at that:

Recently a friend of mine went to play the University of Michigan golf course and came back shouting, “Mackenzie! Mackenzie! Mackenzie!” But another friend asked him, “Shouldn’t you be shouting ‘Maxwell! Maxwell! Maxwell?”

Another writer – a seasoned, well-decorated one, but one who’s architecture and travel knowledge is smewhat lacking dismissed Maxwell offhand by saying, “You know those Maxwell rolls? They really ought to be called Mackenzie rolls!”

“He is so wrong,” fumed Chris Clouser. “Maybe Mackenzie was a huge influence on Maxwell’s bunkering and routings, but Maxwell brought the rolls with him to the relationship.” Clouser also credits Mackenzie with teaching Maxwell about the Doctrine of Deception, where players have to carefully pick their line with no frame of reference – they get enough rope to hang himself. You start to see it at Oklahoma City Golf & Country Club and it became one of Maxwell’s strongest talents for the rest of his career.

It goes to show that Maxwell and Mackenzie are all but inextricably linked. Sure each did some courses without the other, but although Maxwell was always, as Clouser ironically notes in his book title, “The Midwest Associate,” history may have sold him short in the eyes of all but the ardent golfer and students of golf design. Moreover, Maxwell’s fame is diminished because every great course of his is private, and with the exception of Old Town, none are on the eastern seaboard or west coast.


What did Maxwell bring to the equation and where is it in evidence on the courses where they collaborated?  Where was Mack most influential on Maxwell?  Tom Doak, please chime in with your thoughts on Crystal...everyone else too.  I'd love for us to break down this like a fraction...

Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maxwell and Mackenzie - what they taught each other
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2014, 05:19:54 PM »
On which other courses did they collaborate?

Did Mackenzie have no involvement with the back nine at Crystal Downs?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Maxwell and Mackenzie - what they taught each other
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2014, 06:39:31 PM »
On which other courses did they collaborate?

Did Mackenzie have no involvement with the back nine at Crystal Downs?

MacKenzie routed the whole course.  It's believed he made one trip back after that and only saw the front nine being built on that trip.

Jay, I prefer not to try to answer your question, because I'd be guessing.  Educated guesses, but still, guessing.  I'm happy to hear Chris' thoughts on the matter, but I hope he will try not to make blanket statements about what Maxwell did as part of their partnership.

Also, your line that "sure, each did some courses without the other" is a bit lop-sided.  MacKenzie's work without Maxwell includes Royal Melbourne, Cypress Point, and Augusta National.  [Yes, I know Maxwell did some work at Augusta after MacKenzie died.]

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maxwell and Mackenzie - what they taught each other
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2014, 12:46:33 PM »
But Tom, why do the front and back differ so much?  Is it just the terrain?  Or what subtle differences are there in the golf questions posed between the nines?  What kind of questions did Maxwel like to ask as opposed to Mack?  What about other courses llike OCGCC?  That's a seamless whole and you can see Mack's influence on Maxwell clearly:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/southern-hills-vs-oklahoma-city/
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Peter Pallotta

Re: Maxwell and Mackenzie - what they taught each other
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2014, 01:39:20 PM »
Jay, others - are the two sides at Crystal Downs actually so different? On my one play, I noticed/noted many things about the course, but topography aside didn't notice any big difference between the front and the back 9. In fact, the "whole-ness" of the course/playing experience, the "unity" is what I took away as one of the marks of a top flight design. But as I say, I only played it once -- but though I knew of the Mackenzie-Maxwell partnership I didn't find myself thinking even once about it.

Peter

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maxwell and Mackenzie - what they taught each other
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2014, 02:18:06 PM »
Jay, others - are the two sides at Crystal Downs actually so different? On my one play, I noticed/noted many things about the course, but topography aside didn't notice any big difference between the front and the back 9. In fact, the "whole-ness" of the course/playing experience, the "unity" is what I took away as one of the marks of a top flight design. But as I say, I only played it once -- but though I knew of the Mackenzie-Maxwell partnership I didn't find myself thinking even once about it.

Peter

I felt the same way Peter. Also just played once though.

I think we can safely say that Perry taught the Doctor to be more careful counting to nine though ;D

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Maxwell and Mackenzie - what they taught each other
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2014, 02:55:14 PM »
But Tom, why do the front and back differ so much?  Is it just the terrain?  Or what subtle differences are there in the golf questions posed between the nines?  What kind of questions did Maxwel like to ask as opposed to Mack?  What about other courses llike OCGCC?  That's a seamless whole and you can see Mack's influence on Maxwell clearly:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/southern-hills-vs-oklahoma-city/

To me, the only differences are that the back nine greens are a bit more crowned and less tiered, and the back has even less fairway bunkering than the front [actually there is hardly any fairway bunkering on the back, just a single out-of-play bunker on the 13th and the few at the 15th.  But that could also be due to the nature of the holes.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maxwell and Mackenzie - what they taught each other
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2014, 06:09:13 PM »
Jay, the problem is that, to my knowledge, neither MacKenzie nor Maxwell ever spoke on the subject.  So almost any attempt to answer what the two taught each other will involve a very high degree of conjecture.  Personally, I think influences (whether in golf course design or any other walk of life) are usually more general than specific.  I know that I have been greatly influenced by and learned from many people who I have been fortunate enough to cross paths with during my lifetime.  But those lessons are usually how to be a better lawyer or a better father or a better friend or a better person.  If you ask me to give you specifics of exactly what I have learned from them, I would have a difficult time doing so.  And I seriously doubt that anyone could decipher those things that I have in fact learned from any one person unless I told you what they were.  So, while I have every confidence that MacKenzie and Maxwell influenced and learned from each other, in the absence of either one providing specifics, I am inclined to view it as general influence between two individuals who clearly respected each other and became partners more for their similarities than for their differences. 

Tom, with respect to Crystal, I am confused about the absolute statement that “MacKenzie routed the whole course.”   I haven’t seen any definitive evidence to that effect and would be very interested to see anything that you might have.  As we discussed on another thread a couple of weeks ago, the only first-hand account that I am aware of is Walkley Ewing's…"He [MacKenzie] and Maxwell worked almost around the clock until they had laid down holes and torn them up and laid them down again, emerging finally with the eighteen hole layout that we know today."  Again, while I would never suggest that Maxwell deserves primary credit for Crystal's routing, I also don't think his involvement in that process can be summarily dismissed.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back