Southern Pines

« **Reply #25 on:** January 11, 2004, 10:31:38 PM »

I loved Mid Pines, and would highly recommend playing there.
Too bad about Pine Needles.

I also liked The Pit, it was quirky with 11 and 12 the only holes I didn't like. Some of the holes are fun, and its worth playing if you haven't seen it. I found the people there real friendly and helpful too.

Tabacco Road is a must, love it or possibly not, you have to see it.

« **Reply #26 on:** January 11, 2004, 10:43:52 PM »

Ian
I am not sure if its ok to admit this in polite society or not, but as much as I want to see Mid Pines (or Pine Needles if we get there) I am looking forward to Tobacco Road more. It looks amazing.

Andy

« **Reply #27 on:** January 11, 2004, 10:49:58 PM »

You have far more friends with that statement than you might expect. I still stick to my feeling that Tabacco Road is the one course that will be really strongly embraced with time.

Enjoy your trip.

« **Reply #28 on:** January 11, 2004, 11:26:29 PM »

Brian and all,

In case you missed my post above, PN will be closed from May through mid-October, and that was a straight cut-and paste from their web site, which I also linked (not that quote, but another page).

I like The Pit very much the same way as Ian does, scratch #11 and #12 and the rest of the course is quite interesting. Ask long-lost Gib how he feels about The Pit. When Tobacco Road opened, it was called "The Pit on steroids".

And I love Tobacco Road.

« **Reply #29 on:** January 12, 2004, 08:18:27 AM »

I agree that over time, the reputation and status of Tobacco Rd. will only grow. I wrote this on another thread, but watching a Shell WWOG from Pine Valley a couple of weeks ago, I kept thinking about Tobacco Rd. It won't of THAT status, of course, and TR has some REALLY funky stuff on it, but nevertheless, it is a great golf course and the appreciation of that will grow in the years to come.

« **Reply #30 on:** January 12, 2004, 08:25:58 AM »

Scott, thank you for the clarification re Pine Needles. I think we are leaning towards Mid Pines at the moment.

OK, you guys keep mentioning 11 and 12 at the Pit--why? Are they paticularly bad, or do they just not fit the rest of the course?
AG, is 'funky' good or bad? What would you consider the funkiest portions of Tobacco Road?

« **Reply #31 on:** January 12, 2004, 08:48:10 AM »

A.G.,

I'd agree that Tobacco Road creates visual overload the first time you play it, but I wouldn't consider it funky. You have to get used to some of the carries off the tee (2, 13, 15, 16, 18), which you'll find aren't that long and have generous landing areas. And you have to make a decision about going over or around holes like #4, 5, 11. Otherwise if offers a ton of options.

Andy,

Write these down and put them in your bag for Tobacco Road:

1 - The approach to the green is further left (over the bunkers) than it looks.
2 - 3 wood should easily carry over the waste area and over the green is dead
4 - there is more room to the right of the gulley than it looks
5 - DO NOT be short with your approach
9 - Being left of the green is far better than being right
12 - The area to the right of the green will funnel approaches towards the green. You can hit a running approach 10-15 yards farther right than it appears.
13 - Going for this green in two is not advised. Layup to a distance that have have great accuracy with, as the green is only about 10yds. deep
15 - The line off the tee is over the large tree on the right. This is much farther right that it appears, and almost looks like it's going into #16 fairway, but it all funnels that way.
16 - Play more club off the tee than you think.

« **Reply #32 on:** January 12, 2004, 09:23:25 AM »

Brian,
I was thinking of two greens specifically. One is the par five with the hidden green except for a little slot in the front, and the giant flagstick. The other is the short par three with the green that is about 70 yds. wide and only about 10 yds. deep. Maybe "very, very unusual" would have been better terminology than funky!

« **Reply #33 on:** January 12, 2004, 10:57:34 AM »

A.G.,

That Par5 is #13, which basically sits between two "dunes". In the U.S this would be considered highly "funky" or unusual. Compared to some courses in the UK, especially in the NW of Ireland it's probably not that strange (other than being manufactured as opposed to nature dunes).

That Par3 is #6 and it's supposed to be that wide as the hole has multiple tee boxes, which in essense makes it play as 2-3 different holes. Mike Whitaker was just talking about it on the "why are there mutliple tees" thread. The hole from the right-hand tee-box is a much more difficult than from the left-hand tee-box, and they usually have it setup to play from the tee-box and pin-placement on the same side.

« **Reply #34 on:** January 12, 2004, 11:57:48 AM »

Brian,

#6 fits that description, but he might be talking about #17, which is truly a funky green. Funky is kind, actually. It's basically two separate greens connected by a 'string' of green. I call it a barbell, two greens like weights, connected by a thin bar.

The hole is a half gap wedge, 117 downhill over waste areas. Ran and I both think that this hole should be scrapped (partly because you have to walk back to the same tee for #18 as well), but also because a long uphill par 3 connecting the long distance between #12 green and #13 tee would make it a much better walking course AND because there are no long par 3's at TR. Basically, my par 3 irons from the tips at TR for the 5 par 3's are (back tees at #14 have been closed for a couple of years) are: 9, P, 6, P, A. 4 short irons and one mid iron.

A long par 3 between 12 and 13 would make for two fewer long walks (only 14-15 and 9-10 would remain) and would vary the length of the par 3's more.

« **Reply #35 on:** January 12, 2004, 11:58:30 AM »

Brian
I have printed out my personal cheat sheet, thanks. I will, of course, be suggesting to my buddies that perhaps they would be better off a little short on 5, and better to miss right on #9. What are friends for?

AG, that's cool, funky seems like a good thing. I haven't seen (or not seen) a hidden green in a long time. I remember a par 3 at Cruden Bay many years ago was 220 yards or so and was blind, or very nearly so. I seem to recall a hole at Prestwick being blind as well. There's something very exciting about it somehow.

« **Reply #36 on:** January 12, 2004, 12:02:54 PM »

#17 was the par 3 I was referring to. I should also add that I didn't dislike either hole; can't remember anything that I disliked on the whole course! Its good funky...

« **Reply #37 on:** January 12, 2004, 01:32:35 PM »

Scott, that's interesting. I hadn't realized the par 3s at Tobacco Road played that short. I wonder if the course will be modified someday to reflect the change you suggest.
I wonder, does Strantz generally design shorter par 3s?

Brian, Scott, et al: how exactly does Southern Pines stack up against Mid Pines? Are they fairly similar?

(man, its tough sitting here in the cold, salivating about a trip that won't take place for another 3 months!)

« **Reply #38 on:** January 12, 2004, 02:36:35 PM »

Scott & A.G.,

I would agree that #17 is sort of a weak hole and TR could benefit from a long Par3. I've played the course 25+ times and have never seen the pin on the left-hand side of the green.

Scott,

where would you suggest they place the tee for #12.5? Down by that small pond, or just off the 12th green? That would leave a REALLY demanding finish to the round (13.5-18), but that might not be so bad, considering the front 9 finishes with 3 of 4 Par3s.

Andy,

I've never played Southern Pines so I can't comment vs. Mid Pines. I've heard very good things about the course, but some mediocre comments about the conditioning. But this might be strictly a seasonal thing. Because MidPines gets alot of "resort" play, it's usually in excellent condition year-round.

« **Reply #39 on:** January 12, 2004, 02:59:49 PM »

Brian,

Put #12.5 tee between #12 green and pond, there's plenty of room. Green would be at base of hill that holds back tees for #13. Perhaps 200 yards, gently uphill for a 2-4 iron, depending on the wind. Green could be fairly big, with at least 40-50 yards of fairway in front of green for run-ups.

Have you ever seen the pin on the left side of #15? I haven't (same for #17).

ahughes,

It's been almost 9 years since I've played Mid Pines, but I'd say they're fairly comparable, but that means I haven't played it since the renovation. Mid Pines is about 200 yards longer, I think.

TR's par 3's from tips are 152 (new one is ~164, wasn't open in Feb), 148, 178 (new tee is ~184, where my 6-iron was from), 152 (#14's back two tees, at 194 and 178, have been closed for years, I've never seen them open), and 142, though it plays much shorter, and green on right is shorter.

« **Reply #40 on:** January 12, 2004, 03:10:29 PM »

Scott,

I'd need to look at the land between #12 and #13, but your idea sounds good. Ijust wonder how many "safety" problems they'd have going toward the #13 tee.

I think the only pins I haven't seen at Tobacco Road are the back of #8, the front of #12 and the right of #17. Oh yeah, and I've rarely seen the pin in the front of #4, which would make it more interesting to try and run a shot up from the right side instead of over the gulley.

I still think it's best to play #15 as far right (off the tee) as possible, no matter where the pin is placed. There is just too much trouble going straight or left.

Damn, I haven't been down there in a while and all this talk is making me think I need to get back down there soon

« **Reply #41 on:** January 12, 2004, 03:20:25 PM »

Brian:"I've never played Southern Pines so I can't comment vs. Mid Pines."

25 times to Tobacco Road, live an hour away, and never played Southern Pines? How can this be??

« **Reply #42 on:** January 12, 2004, 03:24:03 PM »

Don't you mean the left side of #17 that you haven't seen (based on your previous post)?

Every time I've played #8, the pin is in the back. Makes for a fun, roller coaster put from the front of the green. Same goes for #12. Every time has been on the front. I guess I must always hit the "C" pin set up, or whatever.

Yes, there's plenty of fairway over the trees on the right of #15, but that leaves a blind approach to the green. Tee shot down the left side (3-wood or long iron) leaves the right-side pin (where it's always at) in view and the slot in front open for a run up.

For #12.5, #13 tees would be out of range, as they'd be a good 15-20 feet above the green and long, and with an already long tee shot, no one would get it back there that far (skulled shots wouldn't on a long shot). The hole that comes to mind that fits well here is one similar to #16 at Twisted Dune in NJ, without the gully to hit over:

Fairway in front, large and wide green (has a tier in it), with gorse-like gunk all around it. This one is 217 from tips, but not uphill, so would play about the same.

« **Reply #43 on:** January 12, 2004, 03:28:51 PM »

Andy,

There are like 30-40 courses in the Sand Hills, so you can't get to them all. (a) I got hopelessly addicted to Tobacco Road and my regular group loved playing there, so we went back alot, (b) I'd never heard of Southern Pines for a while and then thought it was only a private course. Throw in some of the other good golf around Raleigh and it's not unusual to miss a few here or there.

I'll probably get down and play Southern Pines this spring as some guys from my club usually do a Donald Ross pilgrimage to Mid Pines, Pine Needles, one of the early Pinehurst courses and this year we're adding Wilmington Golf Club.

Let's put it this way....Ran M. belongs to Southern Pines, so it can't be all bad

« **Reply #44 on:** January 12, 2004, 04:20:21 PM »

All right boys, am I going left or right on #15? I've looked at the pic on the TR site and can't make heads or tails out of what I am looking at, other than perhaps there is a snaking trap down the middle of the fairway?

Brian, must be nice to have so many good ones to choose from. I can certainly see why your gang would have gotten into the Tobacco Road habit.
I didn't realize there was much good golf around Raleigh. We used to visit now and then to see a good friend of my wife's (not far from State), and I never even saw a course anywhere.

If you had to choose between Talamore and the Pit, which would it be? (Brian, I assume you'll sit this round out at the Pinecrest Inn?)

Scott, never heard of Twisted Dune. I gather new courses in NJ want to look like Pine Valley? Certainly a sharp looking hole.

« **Reply #45 on:** January 12, 2004, 04:32:42 PM »

As you can see by the layout, left side of fairway, you can see the green (flag, at least), right side, that sandy-looking area is filled with brush and is raised up, giving no view of the green:

Brian will probably say otherwise, but give me The Pit any day. Like TR, it's different and fun. In an old sand quarry, it has dunes and hillocks as TR does.

A previous question asked about #11 and #12 at The Pit. They are just different from the rest of the course. #12 is the proverbial island green, and #11 is the par 4 with green over the water. #13 is also over the water, but is more of a Cape-type hole, where you can bite off as much as you dare to leave a shorter uphill approach.

« **Reply #46 on:** January 12, 2004, 05:07:27 PM »

I'd rather play Talamore than The Pit, and I'm not a huge Rees Jones fan. Someday I'd like to play it with a llama, but I think that practice is basically non-existant. I'm not a fan of #1 at Talamore (too long to have the fairway end), but I enjoy most of the rest of the course. I like the final two holes, which allow #17 to potentially be driven and then the bite-off-as-much-as-possible 18th over the pond.

If you play Tot Hill, then T.Road and then jump to MidPines/SouthernPines it's going to be like jumping from the hot tub into a bucket of ice water...serious SHOCK!! Talamore provides a nice transition for the trip. Scott will probably disagree with me on this because he's much more of a purist on architecture than I am.

On the 15th at Tobacco Road....maybe I've been misunderstood. The LINE off the tee is over the large tree on the right. This ends up putting you in the left side of the fairway or short of the waste-area/dune. Going straight has a much smaller landing area as the "stuff" on the left comes in alot more than it appears from the tee. Scott's correct that it's more difficult to play from the far-left side of the fairway (behind the dune) as the approach is blind, to a very narrow green that is completely dead if you go long.

Courses you can play around Raleigh:
Duke University
Finley GC (UNC Course...although alot of GCA folks don't like)
The Neuse (Garner)
Wake Forest GC (Scott's club)
Raleigh CC (my club...we're basically old friends after this thread)

« **Reply #47 on:** January 12, 2004, 07:57:14 PM »

Interesting that so many of the better courses near you are college courses. Finley Park I recall was redone not long ago by Fazio.
So many courses I haven't heard of--I did a quick search on Raleigh CC, sounds wonderful, and I've never heard of it. Thats quite a historical claim your course can make!

I agree with you Brian; my schedule for the courses may not be best, starting off with Tot Hill, the Pit and 2 at Tobacco Road, followed by Mid Pines and Southern Dunes. Or, maybe I can rationalize it as showing off modern glitz followed by older class and style.
But I am getting some pushback re the Pit vs Talamore.

Going by that TR diagram, I'm not so sure I want to see a pin in the left corner, not matter what part of the fairway I am in.

« **Reply #48 on:** January 12, 2004, 08:10:08 PM »

Play The Pit. You won't find alot of other courses like that and your buddies might enjoy the experience. There's tons of Rees Jones courses that fit the mold of Talamore

Enjoy the trip, and hopefully the azaleas are blooming around that time.

« **Reply #49 on:** January 13, 2004, 09:23:09 PM »

Brian, Scott and everyone else, mucho thanks for the opinions, the preferences and the words of advice.

'Course, now I have to sit in the snow and wait for three months...

News:

ian

Andy Hughes

ian

Scott_Burroughs

A.G._Crockett

Andy Hughes

Brian_Gracely

A.G._Crockett

Brian_Gracely

Scott_Burroughs

Andy Hughes

A.G._Crockett

Andy Hughes

Brian_Gracely

Scott_Burroughs

Brian_Gracely

Andy Hughes

Scott_Burroughs

Brian_Gracely

Andy Hughes

Scott_Burroughs

Brian_Gracely

Andy Hughes

Brian_Gracely

Andy Hughes