[Patrick_Mucci]

Years ago, many golfers from the northern population centers went on vacation during the winter, today, many have homes in golf communities in Florida, California, Arizona and other warm climates.

Those communities are heavily populated by older individuals and couples.  People in their 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's.

In order for the residential community to attract and retain these older, diverse golfers they had to incorporate a self contained golf/country club, and the golf course withiin had to be "user friendly" to its new, diverse customer base.

Since older individuals, couples and women would be playing these courses, they had to be designed to accomodate a different breed of golfer.

Could it be said that these courses were therefore sanitized by design and location

And, when this diverse group of individuals returned north after the winter season, wasn't it reasonable for them to request that their northern home course modify its architecture to accomodate them, just like they were accomodated on their southern community golf course ?

Did going from an elitist to a broad based popularity result in a period of architectural dumbing down ?

Now, I notice a new trend in residential Florida golf courses,
suping them back up to attract and retain members.

There seems to be a dissatisfaction with bland design and a new interest in more interesting, more demanding designs.

Has the saturation of the residential golf community caused clubs to think that they must now differentiate themselves by now having unique and challenging rather then "user friendly" designs ?

[Tom_Ross]

I don't know if I'd say it was popularity as much as over-exposure, but we're probably only arguing semantics at this point.  The Golf Channel, 100 courses at Myrtle Beach, 12 months of PGA events on TV per year, Tiger Woods video games.....when does anyone have time to think anymore??

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Where did you come up with the idea that those southern seasonal "golf community" residents returning north to their home clubs were responsible for the sanitizing of the architecture of their northern courses?

I think it's pretty safe to say the reasons most of the old classically designed courses almost everywhere were changed pretty much in the same ways was for reasons previously cited on here in the past---eg mothballing in WW2, single line irrigation prevalence following WW2, narrowing fairways due to that--tree planting on the peripheries of the old widths, removal of bunker features for economic reasons, shrinking greens for mowing reasons etc etc.

I don't think many of these ideas and influences started due to "dumbed down" southern "golf community" architecture taken north particularly since these post WW2 influences all over the country started literally decades before those southern "golf communities" were ever conceived of or built en masse.

Interesting idea but I think you have your chronology literally decades out of order!

[Norbert P]

 Golf design in America went through adolescence.  It is maturing.

[TEPaul]

Slag:

Hmmmm---perhaps one could make the case that golf architecture in America went through maturity first and then evolved into adolescence later!    

[Norbert P]

 Yes!  It was a child prodigy until it was corrupted by construction (destruction) tools, cocaine, silicone and disco. The visual vanities!  

  It went from a dream to a nightmare. I hope we are waking up.  I've got some faith that we are.  I just wish I had the money and time to walk and play it all.  Life is good though.

 "I can't complain but sometimes I still do." Joe Walsh

 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Interesting postulation, and possibly true.  I think the gist of sanitizing architecture did come from trying to get rid of all the extraneous features that really didn't make golf harder for good players, but stopped other players.  And lets not pin this on the women, since there are many prime of life males who can't hit it out of a paper bag!

This was written about in the golden age, and in the modern age, ala HKH Golf Digest article in 1965.  Keep only the bunkers and hazards that keep strategic merit.

Some of the sanitizing also comes from the City Beautiful movement that the initial country clubs were a part of.  The american mind likes to put things i"n order."  Some comes from the development of maintenance equipment, presumably for both parks and golf initially.  Part of it is just adapting golf to various landscapes, and the technolgy of irrigation, etc.

So, really, its just a whole lot of things that happened to happen!
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The popularity and growth of residential, self contained, golf communities in the south, for snow birds, parallels the architectural demise and dumbing down that I referenced.

Perhaps you were talking about China.

Jeff Brauer,

Couples golf, as it exists today, was virtually non-existent in 1960.

Women's golf was in its infancy in 1960.
One only has to look at the number of women's tees that have been added to existing courses over the last 44 years to see how increased women's play has influenced older as well as newer golf courses.

Different golfers step on the tee today, versus 44 years ago, from juniors to seniors, women and couples, all of whom were a rarer commodity in 1960.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Is sanitizing the course the correct phase?  Could it be that as the golfing public ages they simply prefer a golf course that doesn't beat their brains out every time they play?  

In an effort to "defend par" have we gotten to the point where golf has gotten to be too difficult for most?  And are the returning snowbirds simply bringing the idea of a more enjoyable golf course with them?

We have spent a lot of time discussing playing from the tips, creating greater challenges for golfers and worrying that the game has lost it's interest because eqipment has made it too easy.  

When in reality when in the face of a technological onslaught handicaps have not improved.  Is this because we continually make the game more difficult by narrowing fairways speeding up greens, cutting fairways tighter all of the time?  

Maybe the cause of declining rounds and "sanitizing" golf courses is that we have simply changed the nature of the game through technology both from a players and maintence point of view.  

[Forrest Richardson]

I envision a newly created course with an enormous white paper printed with green letters and a small green cross with text reading "SANITIZED FOR YOUR PROTECTION" strung across the entire landscape.

Good cartoon.

Pat: Didn't the same "sanitization" occur to degrees in times past? There were polarized courses in America at the onset: Some taking clues from the best of the British Isles, while others took an open approach to allow the newfound game to be played simply and with no thought for the line of charm or strategy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cos,

That's part of it, and I alluded to the elderly, snow bird golfers who populate residential golf communities in the south during the winter, and more and more on a full time basis.

Senior tees didn't exist 44 years ago.
Now, almost every course has a set of them.

But, it's not just the tees, it's the severity of the bunkers, hazards and greens that have been made more "user friendly"

Forrest,

Yes, I believe it did, but on a much narrower scale.
Now, the golfing population is so diverse that the process is extremely broad mongrelizing, sanitizing and simplifying the features and designs.

Today, at almost every turn, society must provide an equalization factor for every level of citizen, and golf is a part of that movement, which I feel has expanded its base.

I see a counter trend, away from bland or undistinguishing features and design, toward more challenging features and designs as these courses seek to set themselves a step above their neighbors.

I think that they are begining to realize that they can't attract new members in their 40's and 50's with golf courses designed for 80 year olds and great grandchildren.

[Forrest Richardson]

Pat,

It's even happening at The Old Course. Here is a story I retold a few years ago:

“Help, I Can’t Get Out!”

On this recent visit to St. Andrews I was fortunate to meet the general manager of the Links, Alan McGregor. Alan is responsible to the Links Management Committee and the Trustees for carrying through their policies. The Trustees are responsible for setting policy, for new developments, and for ensuring that the Links, the largest golf complex in Europe, is run in accordance with the Act of Parliament.

When Alan first came to St. Andrews, he met with some of the local members, and it surprised him a great deal to hear a few complaints about the bunkers on The Old Course. “Some are too deep and we can’t get out,” they said. Alan was quick to suggest, among other solutions, that perhaps they shouldn’t be hitting their balls into the bunkers in the first place. After all, this was The Old Course. Challenge and shot-making are part of the game and its grand design. The discussion continued, and it was not until later in the conversation that one gentleman saw through Alan’s view of the situation. “Alan,” he said, “You don’t understand; they are having trouble physically getting out of the bunkers.”

It seems The Old Course’s bunkers had gradually been getting deeper, due mainly to continual wear and tear. To a senior citizen, the task of getting into a bunker might be far easier than the process of climbing out. One can only imagine the event that led to this discussion. “Say, Bob, where’s Lord Mackerel? He was over there by the Spectacles the last I saw him.”

[Patrick_Mucci]

Forrest,

I recently visited some courses in Florida that had bunkers with perhaps an inch or two of lips/edges.

I then thought of the new bunkers at Merion and the problems that the elderly or those with physical problems might have entering and exiting them.

Your story of the bunkers at St Andrews fits into this question/dilema rather nicely.

There has to be a point beyond which "user friendly" becomes unchallenging or non-strategic.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
The popularity and growth of residential, self contained, golf communities in the south, for snow birds, parallels the architectural demise and dumbing down that I referenced.
Perhaps you were talking about China."

Pat:

Some of the things you reference often have very little to do with chronology or reality but of course that apparently has little to do with your tenacity in defending them anyway.

And I know what you're doing with this thread anyway. After a few years under my tutelage on here you're beginning to feel guilty about all those crazy modern ideas you brought back from your experiences in the south with Von Hagge to your northern clubs and all the "dumbing down" and corrupting that you initiated and fostered!

Aren't you glad I finally opened your eyes to the path of light and right? Don't feel guilty and try to dodge the issue and blame it on others like you are on this thread--just come right out and repent for all those terrible things you did to some classic northern courses!    

We'll forgive you----maybe!

[TEPaul]

Pat said;

"I recently visited some courses in Florida that had bunkers with perhaps an inch or two of lips/edges.
I then thought of the new bunkers at Merion and the problems that the elderly or those with physical problems might have entering and exiting them."

Pat:

I really like your logic here. I wish you'e made this observation about five years ago and we wouldn't have had such a raging debate about the Merion bunker project.

Obvously somewhere around 1998 some of Merion's elderly members who winter in "golf communities" in the south that have "dumbed down" courses and bunkers with 1" lips and edges recommended to Merion that the old "White Faces of Merion" should be flattened and redesigned with 1" lips and edges!

Clearly this so outraged the Merion Green and Traditions Committees that they hired Fazio and Macdonald & Co. to redesign all their bunkers with enormously deep overhanging edges and lips everywhere for the sole purpose of torturing all their old Merion members who spend the winter in "golf communities" with dumbed down courses.

Why didn't you think of this a few years ago---it's brilliantly dyslexic!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Typical of the cognoscente on this site, you criticize von Hagge's work at Boca Rio without ever having seen it.

Those from this site who have seen Boca Rio have been rather positive about it.

Come down and see it in April, it just might knock your socks off and change your blind opinion  

But, am I to understand your position as suggesting that architecture wasn't dumbed down for residential golf communities in Florida and elsewhere from 1960 on ?

And that those same golfers who resided and played at residential golf courses in the south, upon returning north, exercised no influence over the architecture at their home courses ?

I thought that the bunkers at Merion were just rebuilt a few years ago.  I didn't know that they had been worked on in the
60's, 70's, 80's and 90's.  The things you learn on this site are amazing.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Yes you are to understand that it's my opinion that the architecture in Florida was not "dumbed down" from 1960 by "golf communities" and those who resided there (not many resided in golf communities in 1960 because the "golf community" (as we know it now) in Florida then basically didn't exist) did not returned to their courses in the north and begin to corrupt them. The evolutionary changes in many of the old classic courses in the north began earlier than that and were for other reasons. Tree planting following WW2 was massive and prevalent on almost all those old courses in the 1950s because by then many of those old fairways had been narrowed. Just check out any of the old aerials immediately following WW2 and into the 1950s and you'll see what I mean.

So what was you're reason for mentioning the 1" bunker lips and edges you just saw in Florida and the deep bunkers of Merion?

[paul cowley]

...pat
you are assuming a 'dumbing 'down period occurred...how do you support that ?

 i feel the curve has remained rather constant from the golden age on.....

the same amount of good vs. less than good courses on parallel tracts......

on what factual basis do you make your assumption?......?

or is it your personal tastes over design evolution ?

[TEPaul]

"...pat
you are assuming a 'dumbing 'down period occurred...how do you support that?"

Paul:

Pat usually supports his assumptions by pulling stuff out of thin air, stating it, and acting like it actually means something!  

Pat Mucci would be to golf architecture something like Orson Welles and his famous "War of the Worlds" radio spoof (which actually scared the shit out of a good number of Americans)!

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