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TEPaul

Tom Doak
« on: January 08, 2004, 07:09:44 PM »
I have to post this thread because in the last few days (or weeks) Tom Doak has put some truly significant posts on here. The guy is a great architect as I'm sure many have suspected for years but now he's really hitting a significant stride, imaginative, super well grounded in architecture's history and evolution etc.

But he's without question the one who comes on here from time to time and strips through all the hyperbole, favoritism, misinformation, glorification and whatnot and gets to the quick and the heart of the matter in no time. Plus he's in the business and most all of us aren't and either don't understand the nitty gritty or don't have to take responsibility for it, like he does!

I thought I'd post this thought because his response to the lovably ridiculous JakaB on his latest "You Guys are Stupid" (#10) is a classic.

Keep up the good work on the architecture Tom Doak and keep on contributing on here just like you see it!

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2004, 07:42:59 PM »
Not to mention two other things:

Mr. Doak is a coherent writer, who never leaves you scratching your head. (My guess is that -- as opposed to, say, Max Behr -- the only head-scratching he hopes to inspire happens out on his courses.)

And, 2: He (like Jeff Brauer) consistently addresses the questions put to him by the likes of little old me. Which I greatly appreciate.

I certainly hope to play one of his courses someday, soon. They look like fun.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2004, 07:48:09 PM »
GCA's Third Law of Architecture...

For Every "You Guys Must Be Stupid" there is an equal and opposite "You Guys Must Be Brilliant" post.

TEPaul, please lead on!

A_Clay_Man

Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2004, 08:10:03 PM »
I've heard some describe this site as a Doak, C&C lovefest. I suppose it's true, but in no way is it their fault. Other than producing quality and then being recognized, I see nothing wrong with it.

I know I am scratching my head trying to find something to bash these guys on, and it's hard. I even told the group on the 18th at TRC that if the play wasn't towards the pumphouse, I'd come on here and bash'em. Did anyone see that post? No. Because it was the play and all it required was an extra deep sniff.

 If I think Doak and C&C don't use enough centerline nasties, I just assume the principle didn't want to be too radical. :)

I was struck by how quick TD did make reference to the golfer playing wrongly and then blaming the archie. I have never seen that personally but can easily envision the type of person who would make that leap.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2004, 08:12:33 PM by A_Clay_Man »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2004, 08:37:40 PM »
Doak and C&C are going to corner the market on the best world golf course built in the modern era, all because they spend time on site, have finally gotten to the point that they are getting choice jobs and they have studied the old masters like few before them! Just wish those great efforts by TD in Ausssie land were easier to get to.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2004, 09:25:23 PM »
I'm blushing at the above.  I hope this isn't a case where the title of the thread is anti-matter and my posting under it will cause the whole Universe to vaporize.  If so ... sorry in advance!

I don't know exactly where I said what Adam referred to (play it wrong, blame the architect), but I learned that from Pete Dye at the height of his controversial period.  The particular example was a situation at the TPC of Connecticut (now largely changed) where on the last hole, Pete and Commissioner Beman had to decide where to place a cart path.  Either they had to put it so far away from the fairway that it would be hell for the members to access it, or they had to put it somewhere that a long-hitting pro might hit the cart path and bounce into trouble.  Pete was the one who decided to place it for the members' convenience.

Right after Beman left, Pete said to me that he would be sure to get some grief over that path at the tournament.  He said if it was him playing for a $250,000, he would treat that path like a hazard and make sure he didn't get to it from the tee, but he was sure that the pros would just fire away with a driver and blame him over the location of the path.  And that's precisely what they did!

I've stayed away from the infinitely long and boring "Fair or Unfair" thread but something posted there reminds me of another Pete Dye story.  I happened to be with him at the TPC in 1982, when he went back to the locker room to change after being thrown in the lake by Jerry Pate.  The only two players still around were Tom Weiskopf and Ed Sneed, who knew Pete from The Golf Club, and each of them was waiting to tell Pete their pet peeve about the design.  I'll never forget Ed Sneed's:

Ed was playing the last day with Hale Irwin, who hit every club exactly the same distance as Ed.  They both hit 5-irons at the 13th, trying to catch the slope in the middle of the green to feed back down to the hole at the front left.  Ed said his ball and Hale's hit no more than four feet apart on that green, but one of them caught the slope and went back to three feet, and the other missed it and bounced to the back of the green leaving an impossible sixty-foot putt.  Ed said he thought that was unfair, because even at his level a player couldn't be expected to hit the ball within a four-foot radius.

Pete replied immediately.  He said both of them could have been aiming straight at the pin and had a larger margin of error, but they were chicken of the water hazard in front and so they chose to aim at a little patch of slope they weren't good enough to hit.  Then, on the way out, he remembered to ask Ed how the hole had turned out ... and it turned out that both men had two-putted for par anyway !!!


ForkaB

Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2004, 04:52:39 AM »
Tom

Great TPC story!  I love the fact that on that hole, with that pin there IS a very small spot that, if hit, will filter the ball down to the hole.  This defines to me the architect's challenge to the players "OK, SHOW ME how good you REALLY are!"  Given the fact that with that pin there are a number of other ways to play that hole:  go straight for the pin; bail out right; bump short and run; bail out long--all of which can lead to a relatively easy par (remember, that the ridge will filter down any 2nd shot close to the pin, if executed properly), this yard wide "glory hole" is an exquisite feature.  Yet another example of the (too often unsung on this site) greatness of Pete Dye.

PS--I also very much appreciate your willingness to participate on this forum and give honest assesements of your fellow architects.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2004, 05:53:53 AM by Rich Goodale »

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2004, 04:26:53 PM »
Actually, I can think of one BIG Black mark on Tom Doak, that will haunt him for decades -- He's full of it on Shoreacres -- at least according to Shivas and Matt Ward.   ;D ;D ;D

Jeff Goldman
« Last Edit: January 09, 2004, 04:27:34 PM by Jeff Goldman »
That was one hellacious beaver.

tonyt

Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2004, 04:27:10 PM »
Tom,

Ditto!

Your participation maintains and fosters the interest in all of us, be it the passionate budding Doaks or the passionate armchair lovers, and those in between. Your comments aid in the understanding of concepts and relevance for many of us.

To you and the other archies who post, a very big thank you.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2004, 10:19:05 PM »
TEPaul,

I sense that you didn't get a Christmas Card from
Coore & Crenshaw this year.   ;D

TEPaul

Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2004, 10:37:26 AM »
Pat:

I guess you're implying my allegiances are shifting or something. That's not important but I think it's safe to say that these 3-6 companies that are doing some very interesting work these days, including Doak and Coore & Crenshaw, may be all pushing each other in some way to do better and better. It's interesting that Doak & Coore and Crenshaw may soon have courses side by side in at least two very different spots in the world and Hanse now has one across the street from two of Doak's in Pennsylvania.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2004, 12:10:38 PM »
Tom:  I've noticed that several of the calls we've gotten in the past year were from places that Bill & Ben have already built a course:  Georgia, Long Island, Hilton Head, and the fringes of the Sand Hills.  I suspect that's a great market for us.  In the old days, they'd get all the other jobs around those places, but nowadays when everyone wants to market a different name, we are a pretty good option when they are already down the street.

Luckily, too, Ben hasn't wanted to work internationally, so I've kind of cleaned up on the Australia & New Zealand sites.

Strangely enough, I know of only three projects where we have actually competed for the work:  the original Stonewall course (which somehow I got!), a project in Louisville (which they haven't built yet), and the Irish project where we each got one course (and Donald Steel was the odd man out).  I'm sure there are probably more where we were both CONSIDERED but the client just decided in advance which one of us was the first option.

So far the only project where I've competed with Gil was at Philadelphia Cricket Club -- and I guess we split the "minimalist" vote, paving the way for Hurdzan & Fry.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2004, 12:18:08 PM »
You forgot about Valentine, Nebraska, Tom. Gil landed the job, after I believe, you also visited the site as a prospective architect. No?
jeffmingay.com

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2004, 12:32:07 PM »
I hope this site is not a Doak/Coore love fest but I do have the highest respect for their work. I would rather play at Pacific Dunes or Cuscowilla any day and every day over 95% of the courses that  I see each year. I am glad that developers are seeing the market respond in a positive manner to this style of design. There is a project near Reynolds Plantation that is using the Doak name and style in a big way as part of their promotion. I hope this and others like it find economic success the keep the great courses and projects coming.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2004, 12:47:40 PM »
Jeff,

I had not heard that Gil landed that job -- last I heard it was Davis Love 3d.  Are they going to build it?  That's great:  it's a great piece of land, and I wish them well.

I guess I shouldn't have given up on it when Davis Love was going to be the man ... I had a funny feeling that wasn't going to work out, but I didn't really have time to pursue it with so many other things going on for us.

Also, the client seemed to want someone to tell him they'd build a course even better than Pacific Dunes and Sand Hills.  We told him that we only tried to get the most out of each piece of land we were given, and the ultimate ranking wasn't up to us ... but he seemed to think that Jim and I wouldn't be motivated enough after Pacific Dunes to try and surpass it.  He obviously doesn't know me very well.  I wouldn't have made all those trips to Tasmania if I wasn't still motivated.

I hope Gil doesn't fall into that trap.  He should just do his best, and let the rankings take care of themselves.

And it looks like there are plenty of good projects around the Sand Hills ... so when we get our chance, we'll be even more motivated now.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2004, 01:40:47 PM »
Tom,

Rod and I, too, originally heard it was going to be Davis Love 3's gig, there at Valentine. Then, Tommy Nacc made a post hear about Gil getting it. That's since been confirmed to me.

It is a nice property. Rod and I spent two days going over it. He too, I think, was a little to 'non excitable' (you know Rod!), only stressing as well that he'd do the best he could with the potential the property presented. Which, of course, lead to Whitman losing out to Gil, too, I guess.
jeffmingay.com

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2004, 02:08:07 PM »
TEPaul,

Could you post your birthday and address just in case
Coore & Crenshaw are lurking.

Bill & Ben,

Please, when TEPaul posts the above information, send him a birthday card telling him you still care and miss him.

Otherwise, the double blow will be too much and he'll start a Desmond Muirhead or Robert von Hagge thread.   ;D  

TEPaul

Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2004, 05:25:56 AM »
"Otherwise, the double blow will be too much and he'll start a Desmond Muirhead or Robert von Hagge thread."

Pat, that wouldn't happen if I never heard a peep out of them again. ;)

Philly Cricket's new Hurzdan & Fry course seems to be a success for the club but one wonders what a Doak or Hanse course there would've been. I don't know what the progression of the club's attempts at an architect was but I do know how to find out. A friend of mine who's a wonderful golf writer made the call to Ben to try to enlist them but Coore & Crenshaw's scheduling couldn't make it fit. This guy's imitation of Ben explaining this is classic.

All in all I'd say somehow letting C&C, Doak AND Hanse slip by your door is a triple whammy but fate has a strange way at Philly Cricket. Many know that Tillinghast had a plan for 36 holes there originally but the club only went with 18 holes. But most don't realize if Tillinghast had built 36 holes there originally the Wissahickon course as we know it would not exist.

J_D

Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2004, 10:23:04 PM »
 :)

This is my first post and I want to say that I am an unabashed fan of Tom Doak-  and I have never met him.  I have played only 3 of his courses and hope he continues his good work.  I also have his Golf Course architecture book and consider it a must read, as it helps average golfers like me understand the strategy behind a course or holes.

Now let me describe the 3 courses and what I can relate about them.

The first I played was the Heathlands at Myrtle Beach- around 1994/5; a course I consider the best and most  stimulating down there that doesn't involve tidewater in some way.  For perspective, my other favorites there are Oyster Bay, Pawleys Island and Tidewater- but they have the sex appeal of the tidal areas.   It is deemed by many a "cheap ticket" to Scotland and I agree.  Even the easy holes are fun and always different and there are some tweeners that many big hitter low handicap types scoff at.  I have played about 40 or more of teh Myrtle area courses but never tire of it-

The next course I played with the Black Forest course in Michigan- it was a blast with many interesting holes which fit the natural landscape.  I did consider it too hard for me, but I would like to try again.  I recall being impressed that the course was important enough to not start at the clubhouse and ended far away from it as well- it was built to find the most interesting features and use them, not build houses.

The last one nearer to me i teh DC area is Beechtree- north of Blatimore.  Easily my favoirte track in the greater DC area.  Much better than Bulle Rock.  I took a low handicap friend there who had played Bulle rock and he was captivated by Beechtree.  I have played it at least 10 times and never tire of it.  It has some really interesting holes.  I recall asking the assistant pro if Tom ever came back and he said that he had been there in the last year or so.  The owner asked him if he should not make the straight, seemingly easy 300 yard 3rd hole harder and he did not answer instead asking the head pro, "how many times did you birdie #3 in your last 10 rounds".  his answer was "none" which indirectly answered the owners inquiry. I'll bet he was on in regulation each time though. It has a diabolical but not unfair green that is so challenging as the slopes are subtle and uneasily conquered, defintiely a chapter out of some old Scottish course.  Check it out at beechtreegolf.com  Everyone likes the names of the holes-  up n over, gullwing, sahara, etc.

So my observations from these 3 and from pictures of others is that the subtleties are the key and variety and great greens that aren't ridiculous.

keep up the good work Tom

KBanks

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2004, 09:29:18 AM »
Tom, when can we expect your book on the making of Pacific Dunes?

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2004, 09:38:01 AM »
J_D:
I agree on Beechtree.  It seems that Bulle Rock (which has super folks running things) gets all the press, while Beechtree is kind of a hidden jem.  Plus Beechtree's cost is a lot more reasonable.

I love Beechtree - there are some very subtle features that you probably won't notice after one or two visits that keep you coming back.

You're right about #3.  It seems easy from the card, but it plays a lot tougher - it's a surprisingly good short par 4.    

There's a great review of Beechtree on this very website - check it out!


J_D

Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2004, 11:10:27 PM »
 :)

I have similar stories about every hole at Beechtree.  two that come to mind for further comments are #17 Gullwing- simply a perfect short hole, with a lovely yin/yang of "hit it short and have a better angle but longer shot" versus "a longer tee shot, shorter approach" or a third option "a very agrgressive long shot down the left side".

Perhaps to me the least strategic hole, but one I still like is "up and over"- #12- a long straight par 4 with a raised pinehurst style green.  The best chance at par may be to lay up short of the hole

Big Pete

Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2004, 06:38:34 AM »
Gentlemen
Perhaps we should rate the Doaksterpieces ,with some critical input from the man himself . I am only familiar with 4 - Pacific Dunes , Cape Kidnappers , Barnbougle Dunes , and St Andrews Beach - all of which are remarkable . St Andrews Beach is still too young to be fairly assessed but having played pre opening golf at Cape and Barnbougle my unbiased opinion would be 1. BD 2. PD 3. CK

I would be most interested to hear opinions on the US courses and how they rate

spooky

Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2004, 07:10:01 AM »
Gentlemen
Perhaps we should rate the Doaksterpieces ,with some critical input from the man himself . I am only familiar with 4 - Pacific Dunes , Cape Kidnappers , Barnbougle Dunes , and St Andrews Beach - all of which are remarkable . St Andrews Beach is still too young to be fairly assessed but having played pre opening golf at Cape and Barnbougle my unbiased opinion would be 1. BD 2. PD 3. CK

I would be most interested to hear opinions on the US courses and how they rate

Big Pete have you played Pacific Dunes? you said above you have played Cape Kidnappers and Barnbougle ( that's impressive)  I can't rate them myself as I have not played any of them (walked barnbougle). :o

The pics of St Andrews beach are nothing special so far, but Pacific Dunes photographs so well, and has obviously established itself as a world class course. The photo's I have seen of Cape Kidnappers are amazing, but the word is the course won't quite cut the cheese.  Everything coming out of Barnbougle (the current teaser pics are spectacular)  is that Tom has created something very special, and to quote Darius Oliver; "Barnbougle will stun the golfing world"

What fun Tom must have had with these projects; and one can only hope that the fire keeps burning within him to keep searching for more BD's, PD's, CK's and St,A's... ;)

portsea

Re:Tom Doak
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2004, 08:11:51 AM »
Brad - it aint that far - jump on a plane, come out here and enjoy courses amongst the best in the world!
Doak and C&C are going to corner the market on the best world golf course built in the modern era, all because they spend time on site, have finally gotten to the point that they are getting choice jobs and they have studied the old masters like few before them! Just wish those great efforts by TD in Ausssie land were easier to get to.
;)