Has Kapalua Plantation become....

[THuckaby2]

The Tour players are shuttled between holes 3 times.  Between 5-6, 8-9, and 9-10.

That makes great sense to me.  If someone told me they walked from 5 to 6 I was gonna eat a scorecard - which seems to be quite the delicacy around here, btw.

I'd imagine the caddies are quite tired after the back nine...

TH

[grandwazo]

I have a friend playing in the Pro Am this week, I'm waiting for a call to find out a) who is tour partner was and b) the difference between the course he plays vs. the one the tour player sees and whether or not Kapulaua is as great as my fellow GCA'ers believe it to be.  Regardless of whether or not Kapulaua is the best course the pro's see, it has to be the best pro am especially if Mercedes picks up the tab.

[JohnV]

The Tour players are shuttled between holes 3 times.  Between 5-6, 8-9, and 9-10.

At one time I believe they also were shuttled from the 8th tee to the 8th green.

[Scott_Burroughs]

John,

Maybe that's what the pro I talked to meant.  I think he may have just said "the 8th", which sounds more like what you said.  The course layout on the club web site didn't look like much of a walk (distance-wise) from 8 to 9.  I though maybe it might have been up a steep hill or something.

[henrye]

Dan Kelly.  Kapalua has what I would call extreme elevation changes.  What do I mean by extreme?  It surely falls within the top 1% in terms of elevation changes in all courses.  Does this mean that it shouldn't therefore be considered a great course - maybe not to some, but to me it does.

Blasbe 1:  I hold nothing against mountain golf.  My comment was that Kapalua is a fine mountain course.  Do I think mountain golf can be great - yes.  Banff is a great course, and I consider it mountain golf.  Kapalua, to me, is just too extreme to be considered great.  Again, I think it is good and I have truly enjoyed my rounds there, but in my opinion, it is simply not as good as some others on tour - that is was what we were asked to comment on.

As for other mountain golf with stong winds and extreme elevation changes - try the White Witch in Jamaica.  I played there a little over a week ago - the elevation changes are more extreme and the wind was blowing like I've never seen on a golf course before.  PS.  I think the White Witch is too extreme to even be called "good".

[Tom_Doak]

No way Westchester is as good a golf course as Kapalua.  But certainly Augusta and Riviera have a claim, despite the revisions we don't like.  There are a half dozen holes at Riviera as good as anything at Kapalua, and Ben Crenshaw would be the first to agree with that.

The three favorite courses of Tour players since time immemorial are Pebble (disqualified), Riviera and Harbour Town.  I doubt Kapalua would make their list, because a lot of the pros are too "fairways and greens" oriented, and Kapalua has a lot of perplexing local knowledge issues.  But they all certainly like going there!

[JohnV]

Vijay said he felt that Waialai (sp?) where they play next week is harder because the fairways are narrower.  Does the fact that the pros hit it so high and soft and with so much spin make width of fairways and the requirement to hit the proper sides moot?

[A_Clay_Man]

I believe I saw a special they are running. Something like, unlimited golf and stay, starting just under a G. This might be a better deal than Pebble's 1600 for two rounds and three nights.

[Jay Carstens]

I seem to remember talk of the Buick at Westchester moving to a new site.  Or was that just a bad rumour?  

[Brian_Gracely]

Nobody seems to mention Castle Pines for the International.  While it might not be the best course in terms of pure architecture, but it's got great risk/reward for a tournament playing to a Stableford.  It's too bad it gets played right before the PGA, as it would be fun to see Tiger make a 12 point comeback on the back 9, similar to what he did at the Williams Challenge in December.

[Doug Wright]

Brian,

I thought you were going to say that Castle Pines outdoes Kapalua Plantation in doing in Tour caddies!  They have some outrageous walks between tees and uphills to contend with at Castle Pines, no trollies ferrying them anywhere, and it's at 6500 feet elevation not sea level.   If I had the Tour ferry service (it must be between 5-6, 8 tee-green and 9-10) I'd walk Kapalua Plantation before Castle Pines. Otherwise, I'm with Huckster et al, Kapalua Plantation is one tough walk around and through those ravines bisecting the front nine.

Re the qualities of Kapalua vs ANGC and other courses, I'd say it's hard to judge, apples vs oranges, etc. but it's clear that Kapalua presents the POSSIBILITY for greater variety of shotmaking than any other course on Tour because of the elevation changes, grain, width and wind than any other course on Tour. So if that's the criteria, yes Kapalua stands alone. From a purely architectural standpoint, I'd concur with those trumpeting Riviera or Westchester or TPC Sawgrass as there is more variety of interesting architecture on those courses it seems to me. Castle Pines GC? Not in my book vs Kapalua or these other Tour courses. They do have the best milkshakes though...

I love Kapalua Plantation. It's unique and a blast to play.

All The Best,

[BCrosby]

After watching the Mercedes last night, let me offer a  modification to Ran's interesting thesis -

It is not that KP is a better course than ANGC (ANGC's history is hard to overcome; KP is built over some extreme land).

The thesis ought to be that KP has surpassed ANGC as an embodiment of the "classic" architecture that we hold near and dear.

Specifically, KP has:

  - wide fairways,
  - very little rough,
  - almost no trees in play
  - an extraordinarily wide range of ways to play a hole
  - wind profoundly impacting shot making,
  - interesting contouring of greens and their surrounds in lieu of greenside water, rough or other hazards,
  - approaches where the ground game is not just an option    but the best play and is in fact played,
  - some blind approaches
  - greens that stimp at 9 and are still challenging

I can't think of another course played by the Tour that has anything like the foregoing combination of features.  ANGC used to come close, but no longer.

I think that's why I enjoy watching this golf tournament so much every year. There's nothing else on the Tour like it.

Bob

[Brad Swanson]

Doug,
   I was going to mention the caddying issue at Castle Pines too.  I recall walking the front nine of the Wednesday practice round/pro-am of the International in some high 90 degree temps and I just about blacked-out after finishing (not carrying anything but my camera!).  I talked with Olin Brown's caddy after they finished their shotgun start on #5, and he said that most of the players really look forward to the International, but the caddies don't.  Can't speak to how it compares to Kapalua.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Big B]

What is the elevation difference between #10 & #11 combined at ANGC and # 17 & #18 combined at KP?  Can they be compared?

[Mike Hendren]

Bob,

Very solid analysis.  Give me three days at ANGC with a fairway mower, a pick-up truck, a good chain and a respite for the greens mowers and your argument has less merit.  I firmly believe one of the five best golf courses in the world is on Washington Road.  Mow every inch of grass, pull out both the new and mature pines and bring back the bermuda greens and there it is.  As staunchly as I have defended it, I cannot argue with those flaws.  

Those flaws, however, are not architectural.  I see them as maintenace-meld, with apologies to TEPaul.

My only point of contention: as a poor ball-striker, I'd much rather pitch out of the pine straw or lose a shots to Rae's Creek than drop stroke and distance every time I leaked one into those three feet high weeds just a few paces from the putting surface at KP.  

Regards,

Mike

[Doug Wright]

My only point of contention: as a poor ball-striker, I'd much rather pitch out of the pine straw or lose a shots to Rae's Creek than drop stroke and distance every time I leaked one into those three feet high weeds just a few paces from the putting surface at KP.

Mike,

Where does this happen? Yes there is bad stuff off the WIDE fairways at Kapalua Plantation but I don't recall bad stuff that close to greens there.

Best,

[Doug Wright]

BillV/Redanman,

Have you played Kapalua Plantation? I don't find the course a novelty at all, and think it'll stand the test of time due to the features mentioned above. Now I will agree with you, however, that some mountain goat courses are novelties and try to give you the thrill ride WOW factor--I just don't think Kapalua Plantation is like that.

Best,

[BCrosby]

Mike -

As Doug says, the fairways at KP - to paraphrase my dear departed grandmother - are gracious and wide. Only severe misses find the hay.

I agree with you about ANGC. A couple of hours with a mower and a chainsaw would do wonders. Unfortunately, things are going in the opposite direction. I worry that more than cosmetic changes are next.

ANGC is fast becoming a course the USGA would love and Bobby Jones would hate.

But enough negativity. KP deserves to be celebrated. It's a special course, cartball or no cartball.

Bob  

[Eric_Dorsey]

SEE - what did I just say in my topic??  

COLONIAL is constantly being forgotten.  Westchester over Colonial ??  PULLEESE!!  give me a break  

Colonial is one of the top-5, non-major tracks the pros play all year long!  No question.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Dorse,

I assume you've played Westchester to compare the two (your "Courses I've Played" link in your bio doesn't work).  Otherwise, you can't make a fair comparison.

[Bob_Huntley]

Dorse,

Why do you think Anika chose Colonial over Westchester?

[Eric_Dorsey]

that is odd about my site @ webshots - thank you Scott.

No, I have not played WCC, but I know it's not the course CCC is.  It may be a nice track, but so is Torry Pines and all the TPC courses the pros play all year long, and still don't come close to CCC.

[Eric_Dorsey]

Dorse,

Why do you think Anika chose Colonial over Westchester?

I think that's fairly obvious don't you Bob?  Colonial has some long holes, but still with the technology today, and Anika's increased distance, she knew she could 'get by'  Plus, Westchester can play long, from what I see on TV sometimes with all the rain and humidity the NY area gets.  MUCH different than the FW area where, it's usually hard as a rock by mid-May.  

On top of all that, CCC is flat as a pan-cake.  Another proof why you don't have to have hills-galore like Westchester to be a great track.  I think Anika probably took these into consideration.

I also believe there is the Tiger factor.  CCC wants DESPERATELY for El Tigre' to come back to there ranch.  Tiger probably ain't comin because what went down in '97 with the Fuzzy thing and his '...A game' comment.  I believe that CCC enticed Anika there, knowing she's good friends with Tiger, and roled the dice hoping Tiger would bite.

Anika's choice turned out to be a good one as she played great, and could/probably should of made the cut.

any different thoughts on this?

[Paul Richards]

Ran:

You asked: Has Kapalua Plantation become ....

>....the finest course the pros play each and every year for four rounds (Pebble Beach and Dunhill Cup don't count)?


You may also be right - if it's not the finest, it is perhaps the most underrated (and underappreciated) of the course's on the PGA Tour.

Plantation has never been ranked on the top 100 by Golf Digest - a glaring ommission in my book - and is currently only 44th on GolfWeek's Modern list - about 25 or 30 places too high - and, most sadly, Golf Magazine only has it rated as the 50th best of the PUBLIC courses!  

Plantation is an excellent golf course and should deserve much higher respect than it has received, thus far, from the rating publications.

[Michael Whitaker]

Bob Crosby - As I viewed Kapalua on television I kept seeing things that reminded me of some of the holes at Cuscowilla. Like Cuscowilla, Kapalua seems to be very forgiving off the tee, then more and more challenging the closer you get to the hole. Is that a fair statement? Do you find much similarity between the courses?