St. Andrews Beach pics

[Mark_Huxford]

One of the Aussies on the iseekgolf.com architecture forum posted some photos of St. Andrews Beach.

http://tinyurl.com/25y44

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

Who is doing the bunker work on the job, looks very much like Bradley but I presume it is one of your crew?

Brian

[Tom_Doak]

Brian:

You should know Jeff Bradley isn't the only one in the world who can do cool bunkers.

I was there in December with Eric Iverson and Brian Slawnik.  Eric built twelve greens in two weeks; Brian has been doing most of the bunkers, although Eric did the ones on the par-4 tenth.

Eric has come back to the States, but Brian and his family will be down there a while longer.  He'll get some help from Brian Schneider and from Jason McCarthy of MCGD now that they're finished shaping at Barnbougle.  Jason did the bulk of the bunker work at Barnbougle ... if he worked for Coore I guess he'd be famous, too.

[Norbert P]

  http://www.users.on.net/ruthnmalcolm/

  A little shortcut to picture index. (Wishin' I had DSL)

 

[les_claytor]

Very interesting pics. I take it this is a Doak course currently under construction in Australia.  I really admire how the crew is minimizing disturbance of native grasses, and keeping the grasses above the bunkers, etc.  Obviously, the "crew" understands the philosophy and has the discipline and desire to adhere to the guidelines.  Looks like a really cool site.

[Tim_Weiman]

Les,

I agree with you. St. Andrews Beach does look like a really cool site.

[Tom_Doak]

Those pictures didn't load so well on my office computer (slow connection), but look much better from the cable modem here at home.

The interesting thing about these pictures is that they are all from the first week or two of construction.  We added another bunker at the tenth while I was there in December, that isn't in the picture.

It is a great piece of land.  Eric had done some work at both Kidnappers and Barnbougle, and his first reaction was that St. Andrews Beach would be much more fun to play everyday than the others.  We're a long way from done, but I hope he's right.

[portsea]

Tom,
How do you compare Barnbougle Dunes with St Andrews Beach?

[A_Clay_Man]

TD- With the description of the windy conditions, were there special tweaks to this design,If any?

From the pictures,and then imagineing the gale you described, I sure would want to have as much width as possible combined with firmer conditions.

[Tom_Doak]

Barnbougle and St. Andrews Beach are fairly different sites.

I know that all the courses in the "Cups" land on the Mornington Peninsula have compared themselves to links courses, and it's not just an outright lie like in Myrtle Beach, because the land is reasonably undulating and the conditions are windy.  But it's not sand dunes, either; it's beautiful pasture land.

I tend to think of Sand Hills when I'm at St. Andrews Beach, but that's probably only because of the eerie similarity in walking both sites before construction and realizing how little earth had to be moved.  St. Andrews Beach has tea trees on the ridges that separate the property, so it's got more "definition" to it than a links; and the ridges provide a predominance of elevated tees.  You can see parts of other holes as you're walking it, but there's enough separation between them that you see only a piece of another fairway, and you're not sure which it is.  It's a very roomy golf course.

Barnbougle is a real links, and one of the prettiest links sites I've seen anywhere.  Sand dunes from start to finish, with marram grass and bushes to break it up a bit.  The highest dune is about 50 feet above sea level; the lowest point is, literally, the beach.  The holes are wilder and more rugged in nature than St. Andrews Beach ... or anything else I've seen in Australia.  A comparison in the U.K.?  Maybe the first few holes at Machrihanish, although there are some holes with bigger dunes than that.

Both of them are windy; Barnbougle is windier than St. Andrews Beach, and some days it's even windier than Lubbock or Bandon.  Both courses are as wide as we could afford working with a budget, but there will be some lost balls at Barnbougle if you play badly, because the marram off the course is X.  As for firm, like Ken Nice says in Bandon, it's really droughty there for a lot of the year ... I don't know how they could NOT wind up firm.

[Norbert P]

Barnbougle and St. Andrews Beach are fairly different sites.

Barnbougle is a real links, and one of the prettiest links sites I've seen anywhere.  Sand dunes from start to finish, with marram grass and bushes to break it up a bit.  The highest dune is about 50 feet above sea level; the lowest point is, literally, the beach.  The holes are wilder and more rugged in nature than (...) anything else I've seen in Australia.  A comparison in the U.K.?  Maybe the first few holes at Machrihanish, although there are some holes with bigger dunes than that.

Both of them are windy; Barnbougle is windier than St. Andrews Beach, and some days it's even windier than Lubbock or Bandon.  

Damn, Anybody have any Barnbougle Founder's Bonds they want to sell or trade?

[Player_Aus]

Tom, I was on the site last Saturday and was amazed at some of the work the guys are doing, particularly with bunkering.  What is your opinion on the 8th hole??  It will present the player with a lot of options for positioning off the tee.... I will post some new pics shortly!

[Matthew Delahunty]

A new link to some more photos was posted on iseekgolf.com tonight:

http://www.users.on.net/ruthnmalcolm/sabeach/

[Tom_Doak]

Dela - I looked through these to see how it's coming, since I haven't been there in a month now, and Brian digs bunkers pretty fast.  Only the first 4-5 pictures show much of the golf course; the first three are all of the 18th hole from various angles.

Looks like he's doing fine; I'm not gonna call and tell him to move one based on what I could see.  But it's much better in person and in 3-D.

[portsea]

Barnbougle and St. Andrews Beach are fairly different sites.

I know that all the courses in the "Cups" land on the Mornington Peninsula have compared themselves to links courses, and it's not just an outright lie like in Myrtle Beach, because the land is reasonably undulating and the conditions are windy.  But it's not sand dunes, either; it's beautiful pasture land.

I tend to think of Sand Hills when I'm at St. Andrews Beach, but that's probably only because of the eerie similarity in walking both sites before construction and realizing how little earth had to be moved.  St. Andrews Beach has tea trees on the ridges that separate the property, so it's got more "definition" to it than a links; and the ridges provide a predominance of elevated tees.  You can see parts of other holes as you're walking it, but there's enough separation between them that you see only a piece of another fairway, and you're not sure which it is.  It's a very roomy golf course.

Barnbougle is a real links, and one of the prettiest links sites I've seen anywhere.  Sand dunes from start to finish, with marram grass and bushes to break it up a bit.  The highest dune is about 50 feet above sea level; the lowest point is, literally, the beach.  The holes are wilder and more rugged in nature than St. Andrews Beach ... or anything else I've seen in Australia.  A comparison in the U.K.?  Maybe the first few holes at Machrihanish, although there are some holes with bigger dunes than that.

Both of them are windy; Barnbougle is windier than St. Andrews Beach, and some days it's even windier than Lubbock or Bandon.  Both courses are as wide as we could afford working with a budget, but there will be some lost balls at Barnbougle if you play badly, because the marram off the course is X.  As for firm, like Ken Nice says in Bandon, it's really droughty there for a lot of the year ... I don't know how they could NOT wind up firm.

[portsea]

TD.
When is the course at StAndrewsBeach opening? have you started grassing yet?
Do you think there is a risk of too many courses on the Peninsula?
Will St Andrews Beach stand up against the competition? Why?
Do you think enough of us will go to Barnbougle Dunes enough times in a year for the devloper to make it work? Will there be anywhere to stay down there?
Cannot wait to play both courses.

Barnbougle and St. Andrews Beach are fairly different sites.

I know that all the courses in the "Cups" land on the Mornington Peninsula have compared themselves to links courses, and it's not just an outright lie like in Myrtle Beach, because the land is reasonably undulating and the conditions are windy.  But it's not sand dunes, either; it's beautiful pasture land.

I tend to think of Sand Hills when I'm at St. Andrews Beach, but that's probably only because of the eerie similarity in walking both sites before construction and realizing how little earth had to be moved.  St. Andrews Beach has tea trees on the ridges that separate the property, so it's got more "definition" to it than a links; and the ridges provide a predominance of elevated tees.  You can see parts of other holes as you're walking it, but there's enough separation between them that you see only a piece of another fairway, and you're not sure which it is.  It's a very roomy golf course.

Barnbougle is a real links, and one of the prettiest links sites I've seen anywhere.  Sand dunes from start to finish, with marram grass and bushes to break it up a bit.  The highest dune is about 50 feet above sea level; the lowest point is, literally, the beach.  The holes are wilder and more rugged in nature than St. Andrews Beach ... or anything else I've seen in Australia.  A comparison in the U.K.?  Maybe the first few holes at Machrihanish, although there are some holes with bigger dunes than that.

Both of them are windy; Barnbougle is windier than St. Andrews Beach, and some days it's even windier than Lubbock or Bandon.  Both courses are as wide as we could afford working with a budget, but there will be some lost balls at Barnbougle if you play badly, because the marram off the course is X.  As for firm, like Ken Nice says in Bandon, it's really droughty there for a lot of the year ... I don't know how they could NOT wind up firm.

[Tom_Doak]

Portsea:  You ask a lot of questions.

St. Andrews Beach is just starting to put in irrigation heads now; grassing will begin in February.  We think it will go quite quickly since the fairway surface is mostly ready to plant today.  They are hoping for an opening next spring (October or November).

Is there a risk of too many courses on the Peninsula?  Depends on your point of view.  If you're a golfer, certainly not ... the more there are, the lower the price and the better the selection.  If you're an investor, there will come a point where you'd better be invested in the right project to make any money.

Will St. Andrews Beach stand up against the competition?  I think it has a good chance to be one of the five best courses in Australia.  If I'm right, it ought to do fine.  Why?  Because the contour of the ground is as good as any land I've ever worked on, and I think the routing we came up with makes very good use of it.

Will enough of you go to Barnbougle Dunes?  (I presume by "us" you mean Aussies -- if the course had to survive on income from GCA regulars it would be a disaster.)  That is, of course, the only question I can't answer.  I will say I certainly hope it succeeds, because one of the ways the project got off the ground was that I agreed to take a significant portion of my fees in return for future earnings of the course.  If it doesn't make money, then it's just my gift to Australian golf.

There is a very nice little resort in Bridport now, with about 25 units, each of which has two or three bedrooms plus a common area.  As soon as there is need for more, I believe that Richard Sattler will build it on the Barnbougle property (but away from the golf course itself).  In addition to farming potatoes, he owns and operates a hotel in Hobart, so he'll be getting into a business he knows there.

[Mike_Clayton]

portsea

Just a question I have always wanted to know the answer to and have asked  some old guys without getting a really satisfactory answer simply because they didn't know either.

Was anyone saying about the sandbelt in the twenties?  'I think we have too many of these Mackenzie courses'

Remember, few had cars in those days and the clubs all moved from inner city locations close to where the members lived to places as far away as St Andrews Beach is now in terms of travel time.
And the comfort of travel now is incomparable to those days.

Having played St Andrews Beach a few days ago ,I think there is little doubt it will be the most popular course on The Peninsula simply because it is not as difficult as the rest of the new ones.
I happen to think it is also the best of them.

[Bill_McBride]

My Australian geography is truly deplorable.  How far is it from Melbourne to St Andrews Beach?  I guess it's a long way from Melbourne to Barnbougle.  Hmm. Probably needs to be a two week trip minimum!  

[Mike_Clayton]

Bill
You are no different from most Americans !!

St Andrews Beach is about an hour and a half from the middle of Melbourne and only an hour from Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath.

Barnbougle is a 50 minute flight from Melbourne to Launceston - the biggest city in the north of Tasmania- and then a 50 minute drive.
There is also an overnight ferry from both Melbourne and Sydney to Devenport which is a 90 minute drive to Barnbougle.

[Andrew Summerell]

If both courses are as good as their pictures look, (& Tom & Mike say they are) then they will succeed admirably.

I'm from Sydney & am already planning a trip next January to play both courses. If the courses are worth it, I will do a similar thing every year, allowing me to play the sandbelt as well, of course. And there are quite a few Sydneysiders who do similar, so an hours drive (St A Beach) or flight (BD) for Melbournians should be no problems.

The other thing to consider (for Barnbougle Dunes) is that there are no GREAT courses in Nth Tassie, so the locals should support it as well.

[Mike_Clayton]

Andrew

There is only one GREAT course in Australia.
A few close but only one that belongs with the greatest cathedrals of the game.
Northern Tasmania doesn't really have a better than average course and the two best courses on the island - Royal Hobart and Tasmania - are not in the top 50 in the country.

That is why Barnbougle is so important to both golf and golf tourism in Tasmania.

[portsea]

MC,
Good question - just hearing from a lot of locals that there will be too many courses - do you think there will be over supply?

portsea

Just a question I have always wanted to know the answer to and have asked  some old guys without getting a really satisfactory answer simply because they didn't know either.

Was anyone saying about the sandbelt in the twenties?  'I think we have too many of these Mackenzie courses'

Remember, few had cars in those days and the clubs all moved from inner city locations close to where the members lived to places as far away as St Andrews Beach is now in terms of travel time.
And the comfort of travel now is incomparable to those days.

Having played St Andrews Beach a few days ago ,I think there is little doubt it will be the most popular course on The Peninsula simply because it is not as difficult as the rest of the new ones.
I happen to think it is also the best of them.

[Mike_Clayton]

portsea

I have heard many times there will be too many courses down there. Only time will tell but the National has a huge membership and  the other  members courses down there- Portsea,Sorrento,Rosebud - cater well for their distinctly different types of memberships.

Who knows about Moonah Links?
The Dunes does well mainly from public play and seems to have a loyal following.
Eagle Ridge ?

St Andrews Beach is seemingly following The National model.
If it manages to get both courses rated in the top 100 in the world - distinctly possible - then it is hard to imagine it not becoming popular simply because of the associated prestige and the fact it would seem to be a cut above the rest.

It will be interesting to see how it works but in time they will succeed or fail based on the quality of the courses and the quality of their administration.

[tonyt]

It's not that many years ago that the Gold Coast was no golfing mecca, and the arrival of nearby Kooralbyn was some amazing watershed. If we'd known back then how many premium and attempted premium courses there are now, we'd have laughed our heads off. That is, until we realised how many golfing visitors there now are to the region.

It has to be said that outside the hardened and most committed golf lovers of particularly Melbourne, the Mornington Peninsula is not yet as widely known as a must see golfing mecca. It's golfing visitor numbers show that it is still an extremely immature golf tourism market, which if managed competently, should still have substantial growth ahead of it.

Will some courses struggle with the competition? Of course portsea, and therefore your concerns are quite warranted. But in the long term, there will always be periods of supply glut, and supply shortage. I believe that in 20-30 years time, there will be at least 2-3 economically viable golfing developments on the peninsula that haven't even been conceived yet.