Tom Doak's Kilshannig Golf Club

[Andy Silis]

Great article about Tom Doak and his new design Kilshannig Golf Club ( pending environmental OK  ) in Castlegregory,Co. Kerry, Ireland. It's in the new issue of Travel and Leisure Golf. Aside from being a good article about Tom and his career it describes a site visit to the proposed Kilshannig Golf Club he makes with Don Placek. The property sounds  absolutely stunning both visually as well as architecturally. Henry Longhurst wrote about Castlegregory as "posessing a stretch of sandhills on which everyone who has seen it knows instinctively there could be built the finest golf course in all the world"! There is also a picture of Doak's routing of Kilshannig in blueprint form.

Enjoy!

Andy Silis

[Jeff_Mingay]

I sincerely think it's wonderful that Tom Doak and his crew are hard at work throughout the world these days. I've expressed this sentiment to Tom, personally.

What amazes me is, very, very few true seaside links have been designed and constructed over the past half century, or more. Now, all of a sudden, every other project Doak's landing seems to be slated for dunesland on the sea:

Pacific Dunes
St. Andrews Beach
Barnbougle Dunes
Kilshannig
(plus, seaside at Cape Kidnappers)

Amazing! Congrats again to Renaissance Golf; Tom in particular.

[Norbert P]

 I found this ...  (Story vaguely reflects headline, IMO)

     Locals unhappy about golf course project  
  From:The Irish Independent
Sunday, 30th November, 2003  
 
LARISSA NOLAN

LOCALS living beside one of Ireland's geographical wonders are hoping that plans to build a golf course on it are never realised.

The tombolo at Castlegregory, Co Kerry is one of a few of its kind on this country: an 800-acre long and 500-acre wide sandbar that reaches out from the mainland onto a small island, connecting the two in spectacular fashion.

But due to its natural sandy terrain containing lots of hilly sand dunes, the tombolo is the perfect location on which to set up a golf course. Now an American company, Kilshannig Cross Ltd, has commissioned an environmental impact statement on the area, with the possible intent of building a golf course there.

The company has previously stated that it does not want to interrupt the natural habitat and will consider all environmental issues before any action is taken.

Castlegregory poet Micheal Fanning - who has written about the beauty of the area in much of his work - said the proposals were still in the very early stages.

"The application has not even been made to the council yet, but there is a lot of talk about this in the area," he said.

"There should certainly be dialogue before anything is decided or given the go-ahead. This tombolo is a fantastic site and should always be there for people to enjoy. If there was a golf course on it, maybe that freedom would be taken away."

The tombolo is currently described as "commonage", in that it is owned by a number of farmers.

Micheal Fanning is the author of Tombolo - A Poetical History of Castlegregory, which was launched last week on the tombolo itself.

  (   http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/2054315?view=Eircomnet   )
 
 

[Andy Silis]

According to the article,the developer of the project Bob Bianchi has gotten the families that own the property to consent to a golf development. Bianchi's plans are for 2 courses. The aforementioned Kilshannig Golf Club which would be open to the public and a private club called Maharees across the road to be designed by Bill Coore. If it all works out, I can't think of two better golf architects for this spectacular property!

[Scott_Burroughs]

This must be the project Tom referred to some time ago when he said there just might be an opportunity to have a project simultaneously alongside Coore (Crenshaw, too?), but he couldn't divulge further.  Obviously Pac Dunes/new course are at different times.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I hope this project works out for everyone... meaning the golf course developers, the architects, future greenkeepers, and golfers, but most importantly, the residents of the area, too.

the potential sounds like a dream from here in Canada.

Doak's portfolio alone would suggest that we're entering a new 'Golden Age of Golf Design', don't you think? Good news for the sport. Or is it a game?!?!

[Norbert P]

 


Overhead of peninsula.

Wow, it worked.  That's my first ever posted picture. Woo hoo!  I learned something and school is closed today. Mega woo hoo!  Thanks to Scott B for guidance.

[George Pazin]

Wonder if that writer spoke to any other locals....

Is the T&L Golf the one with Dennis Quaid on the cover, or a newer one?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I cannot think of anything better than doak and Coore with course next to each other. I hope this project gets done.

[Tim_Weiman]

I hesitate to comment on this subject, but having walked part of Castlegregory, I can confirm that this is an exciting piece of land and I very much hope Tom and his team get to build the course.

But, golf architecture fans shouldn't get too fired up just yet. Optaining planning permission on links land in the EU is no trivial task, even though it does seem - from my contacts - that the Irish government is inclined to support development.

Just to keep things in perspective, Dr. Arthur Spring has been working on permitting for nearby Inch for about 12-13 years. He has taught me that there are many highs and lows in the entire planning permission process. Castlegregory might go smoothly and take only a few years. Then, again, it could become an effort similiar to what Dr. Spring has experienced.

[Thomas_Brown]

Undoubtedly Doak will construct a masterpiece.
And nobody is a greater GB&I fan than I, but the bigger question is cost.  Ireland golf green fees have been skyrocketing since the 1990's.  I know it's won't be Doak's discretion, but will this be in the Old Head range?

20 years from now will Doak's high end masterpieces generalize him into the Fazio price category?

Tom

[Jack_Marr]

Well, I hope it does go ahead, providing the golf is affordable, although I don't know the finances of such projects.

I am actually thinking of buying a house in the area, so this might make it more desireable.

[Andy Silis]

The T&L issue is the one with Greg Norman on the cover.

[Chris Pike]

I'm waiting for Tom's periodic harangue about how many days he has been traveling recently  .  While I agree that traveling does take its toll after a while, Doak does get to go to some of the coolest places on the planet.  God bless him...

[Tom_Doak]

CD:  I just got back from a 2 1/2 week vacation in NZ and Australia with the entire family, so I'm not complaining.

I haven't seen Bob Cullen's article yet, but I'm glad that the cat is out of the bag on the project.  I hope that publicity doesn't hurt its chances of coming to fruition; a lot of clients would rather their projects stay in the dark until the permitting is complete, which is why I haven't been talking about a couple of the more exciting things we're working on.

That trip Bob Cullen wrote about was my last visit to the site; we're waiting for the full year's feedback on environmental issues before doing anything else.  The initial feedback is quite good -- they looked extensively for endangered plants last spring and found nothing, perhaps in part because it was the driest year in Ireland for a long time.

The site has been looked at for a golf course for more than fifty years, but the common ownership had held it up until now.  Mr. Bianchi was able to get all of the owners to sign off on a sales agreement (with many conditions) ... 21 owners in all, I believe ... Bob is a very patient guy.  He is NOT a golfer, but has put his faith in Bill Coore and in me to steer him in the right direction.

Bill had the first choice of property and took the western or "ocean" side of the peninsula -- he has to stay away from the beach a bit because of blowing sand, but has some great blowouts to work up against on the interior side of the property.  His course will be very private, by Irish standards; I believe you will need to play with a member, and the memberships will be very pricey.  

I got the "bay" side where we can work right up to the water's edge at some points:  there is some flattish linksland and some big dunes.  I actually preferred doing the course that's open to the public, even if it's on the "second" site.  The property is really true linksland ... about 3/4 of it is in fescues already instead of marram grass, so it just has to be mowed out.

If, of course, they will still allow golf courses to be built on linksland (or tombolo!).  The whole peninsula is designated as a Special Area of Conservation because of its pristine scenery, and it was suggested to us that the golf course might spoil this.  We wondered aloud why that would be, if there was little or no heavy construction to be done?  The answer:  well, having a golf course would mean there would be a lot of people out on the dunes walking around, and that would spoil the scenery in some people's eyes!

[RJ_Daley]

The whole peninsula is designated as a Special Area of Conservation because of its pristine scenery, and it was suggested to us that the golf course might spoil this.  We wondered aloud why that would be, if there was little or no heavy construction to be done?  The answer:  well, having a golf course would mean there would be a lot of people out on the dunes walking around, and that would spoil the scenery in some people's eyes!

Tom, I wonder how it is now.  From the picture above, the foreground is small crop plots, probably set apart by stone fences and such.  Is that considered a pristine view? I assume the Tombolo is the double pennisula appendage in the distance.  Do people regularly, or frequently go out there now?  Do they use it for strolling, exercise, rabbit hunting, or whatever?  How many per day?  Who looks out upon that vista from the vantage point behind the camera above.  At ground level, what is seen of the Tombolo by those that want to enjoy the view - and would 60-120 people walking around a natural linksland golf course destroy the purity of that view?  Would they even be conspicuous at all?  Just questions that come to mind Tom...

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom,

If I remember correctly, from the road approaching Castlegregory you would hve to have damn good eyes to see people walking on the peninsula!

[Tom_Doak]

From Castlegregory itself (at the base of the peninsula) you can't see the site well at all ... you wouldn't even know Bill's land was there.  But you can see parts of our site pretty clearly from the road out to the tip of the peninsula, which is used extensively in summer by surfers, caravaners, etc.

The funny thing is they value the view through this site because it's the only part of the peninsula which isn't developed; the rest of it is crawling with little houses, two caravan parks, and activity.  [One caravan park is right between the two golf sites, and I was told it's not a permitted use, but there it is; trying not to let it impact on our golf course led me to discard several otherwise good routing alternatives.]

[RJ_Daley]

Doesn't this seem to always be the case of double standards when permitting and environmental issues are weighed against golf course projects?  How many times do we see a golf course that finally gets completed and enhances the territory rather than detracts?  Isn't Friars Head an example.  Now that it is done, isn't actually better than its totally rustic state?  So, as I understand Tom, there is now non-permitted unsightly development that exists, and a proposal to create atleast 1/2 of the pennisula to a public use recreational facility that promises to be sensitive and KEEP the linksland natural flavor of the Tombolo, VS willy nilly surfers and nomadic interlopers that will eventually haphazardly junk the site up like a hippie comune.  Is that stating it too strong?

This sort of gets into Forrests thread about "entitlement".  If the powers that be would be assured of the more close to pristine natural manner of maintenance of the land as a golf course would be more likely to keep the area looking more like its original state Tombolo than willy nilly tent and shack cities of surfers and such, wouldn't "entitlement" of the land as golf land be the smart thing to do for posterity?

[Bill Gayne]

It sounds like these are similar issues that both Doonbeg and Old Head have faced and the Irish courts have asserted the private property rights of the golf courses.

[Tom_Doak]

RJ:  I think that's stating it too strong.  Hopefully, no one in the opposition Googles this thread and uses your words as the voice of Golfers everywhere.

Non-golfers are 90% of the population ... maybe a bit less in Ireland ... so it's understandable that they see a golf course as a nuisance.  (Racetracks have even more opposition.)  However, every case is different, and I wish that were appreciated by people on all sides.  I don't believe that Castlegregory is comparable to either Doonbeg or Old Head in its objectives.  (We don't have any endangered snails or bird sanctuaries that I'm aware of, either.  The common owners have for years grazed animals on the site, and their droppings have polluted a small pond on our side of the road, so the general feeling is that the golf course will be better for the environment than the cows.)

Apart from those types of environmental concerns, there is a sense that some people wish that some unspoiled duneland remained as such, not for the birds and toads so much as for visual beauty.  I think that's a noble goal ... but that's when property rights have to be respected.  They didn't think of telling the common owners to take the animals away to improve the view; I don't think the golfers should be treated any differently than the cows were.

[TEPaul]

Tom Doak said:

"I don't think the golfers should be treated any differently than the cows were."

No problem here--nobody has ever treated me much differently than a cow anyway--certainly my wife doesn't!

[Jack_Marr]

I think it's generally the minority that object to such projects, and it's usually the same crowd.

People tend to appreciate what they had a little more once it is taken away, and it's the exclusivity of such projects that they fear.

In some countries in the EU, most notably Denmark, they have laws that states that certain areas of beauty cannot be taken by foreign investors. In Kerry, rich Dubliners would be considered foreigners. Rich Europeans and Americans the same, only more exotic.

I think it is a shame that the Coore course will be so exclusive, but someone owns the land and they have thier rights too.

[jeffwarne]

Bump.

any info on status of this

[Jim_Kennedy]

About a year ago there was a thread about TD's best courses he never got to build. Number 10# was the one you ask about.

Castlegregory, Ireland, 2003-04.  I made three trips to this property on the Dingle Peninsula, where Bill Coore and I had been hired to design 36 holes side by side on some common-owned land that our American client had tied up for developing the courses.  My site was on Dingle Bay; Bill's was across the road on the ocean side of a narrow north-south spit of land.  We both completed our routings, but our client suddenly lost interest during the permitting phase [I think because of cash flow issues], and he allowed his option agreements on the land to expire.  Others have looked into this property with the idea of resurrecting the project, but one who did told me that the previous client had burned so many bridges locally that it would never happen.

Best hole:  There were a few of them here.  The long par-4 thirteenth, with a green set high in the dunes, would have been a stunner; and the very next hole would have been a 280-yard par 4 across wrinkly ground with the green in a narrow hollow.  There was a par-3 out along Dingle Bay that was just laying there, too … I think it was going to be the ninth in our last version of the plan.