[allysmith]

Gentlemen,

With the recent attempt by the R&A to speed up play is there an opportunity for the good subscribers of GCA  to design speed into their course design and construction.

As a Kick off:

1. Deeper smaller bunkers which are less easy to get in (and out)
2. Less Rough and undergrowth, so time is not spent searching for balls
3. Three shot par fives so time is not wasted waiting for others to clear the green.
4. Fewer blind shots
5. More tricky dog-legs and fewer long par fours

I await your expert opinion.

On the other hand we could stop balls being marked within 3 feet of the hole in strokeplay

[JLahrman]

Railroad tie-ish borders to water hazards.  The ball is in or out, no searching for your $5 Pro V1 for ten minutes.

Slower greens

Only two cul-de-sacs between a green and the next tee.

[Matt_Ward]

Ally S:

Simple deal -- tell management at any facility to really PAY ATTENTION to what is happening on their golf course.

When the inmates run the asylum the management has washed its hands of its primary reponsibility.

I have never seen a course layout that could not be managed properly for slow play. Unfortunately, too many management groups are simply interested in the number on your Mastercard / Visa rather than the total time spent on the course.

Please realize I am speaking specifically of what takes place on many American courses.

If management monitors play aggressively and enforces all the rules UNIFORMLY you can make headway. The question always remains -- how much of a priority is the issue for managements. Most simply pay lip service to it IMHO.

[TEPaul]

There's one way and one way only to build speed of play into design. Unfortunately those bumble-heads out there in Golf Land and even those on here are never going to figure it out until;

They read and completely understand MAX BEHR and his entire philosophy on golf and its architecture!!!!

[Craig Disher]

If a mid-handicap Scot gets around Carnoustie in about 3 hours, the difficulty of the golf course isn't the cause of slow play.

[A.G._Crockett]

Ally Smith
I understand your premise, but I agree with CDisher that the difficulty of the course isn't what brings about slow play.  
The downside of your list would bring about a "sameness" in GCA that would cause the game to lose flavor quickly.

Slow play is ALWAYS either:
      1. a management problem
      2. a disregard by golfers of the rights of other golfers,
          whether by ignorance or design
      3. a combination of 1 and 2 above

Containment mounding on either side of the fairway is a common method of intending to speed play through architecture.  Typically, the very CCFAD's that utilize this also require carts, and restrict the carts to the cart-paths, thus guaranteeing a 5 hr. round, and with inferior design to boot!

[Jeff_Mingay]

Route a variety of holes over a natural landscape, build some interesting green complexes and mow the entire course one length.

Voila! Golfers are finishing 18-holes over a 6,600 yard course in 3 hours again. And it should only cost them $25 per player per round.

Sounds simplistic, and idealistic, sure. Call me crazy. Nonetheless, it's a concept's appealing to me.

Go see Mike DeVries' and Kris Shumaker's Diamond Springs course in western Michigan, near Grand Rapids. Diamond Springs nearly embodies this concept. That's why you've never heard of it, of course!

Golfers in western Michigan like it that way, I'm sure  

[JakaB]

Overly quick play is both selfish and a reflection of boring companionship.

[TEPaul]

"Overly quick play is both selfish and a reflection of boring companionship."

JakaB---you beautiful dog---YOU'RE BACK!!!

[Norbert P]

 Removing benches is criminal.

[Rick Shefchik]

Slow rounds can be attributed to managment if management didn't insist on putting the next tee within short walking distance of the previous green.

[MarkT]

Simple solution is to quit selling golf clubs at Walmart.

[A_Clay_Man]

Overly quick? WHo said anything about overly quick? The same is true for those who delay unduely, selfish and bad companions.\

Honestly Ally's suggestions scare the hell out of me. Soften the architecture on the come that rude selfish a@$%$%'s will still not dilly daddle? To see that this is a falsehood, all ones needs to do, is to go to the low bunker non-stirring courses and see how long it takes them, plenty long.

Educating the golfer is the only way. And that can not happen effectively until managements realize that they have the power to dictate ettiqutte. Tell'em their moneys no good  the next time, if they fail to keep pace. Guess what? You'll find out who's a golf course and who's a panty waste.

[Bruce Katona]

Match play not stroke play.  It minimizes grinding it out for double or triple and lining up 18" putts.

Add alocal rule when playing match play: Add 1 stroke to your score per hole where you lie when the player winning the hole holes out.  I'm willing to bet play will speed up and handicaps will drop.

[JakaB]

Lou Duran and I were in the first group off at KP1 and I believe we were the slowest group.   If anyone has any ideas why this might have happened...including why the group behind us was never in a position to play through..please advise.

[Jeff Goldman]

Isn't it time once again to refer to (I think) Bill Yates, who has posted here and made studies of pace of play.  In fact, I think his website is something like pacemanager.com.  My recollection is that he believes that slow players are not the chief cause of slow play (despite my bro in law driving me nuts with his practice swings), but placed a lot of emphasis on appropriate tee time intervals and factors specific to individual golf courses.  So there.

Jeff Goldman

[Doug Siebert]

Shivas,

IMHO, preshot routines, even something like Sergio's painful display, doesn't slow play very much by comparison to not playing ready golf.  I think this is why cart golfers are so slow.  When I'm walking, I'll walk up to my ball wherever possible and be figuring out the yardage, the club I want, the wind, etc. while others are playing.  When it is my turn I just have to stand behind the ball to get my line, take a sort of half practice swing, address the ball and go.  When I'm forced to take a cart, I'll walk over to my ball while my cart-mate is taking care of his shot.  Unless I have no clue how far I might be, I'll bring the club I think I need and one on either side, which will cover me over 90% of the time.

Cart golfers usually are loathe to walk any further than the direct line the 90 degree rule requires so one guy sits on his fat ass in the cart and watches his buddy, waits for his buddy to replace his divot (we hope) wipe off his club, put it back in his bag and get back into the cart.  Only then to do they move on to his ball and the whole process starts over for the other guy.  Sometimes you see both carts do this together to four balls in turn so they can all be jawing away the whole time.  They view a round of golf as a social experience so it doesn't matter to them how long a round of golf takes, and don't understand why anyone would worry if a round takes 5 hours.  Hence the American expression "day of golf".  When Scots say that they are talking about 36 holes or more!

The Sergio like guy with the slow preshot routine isn't the problem, it is his buddies all standing their slack jawed while he does it.  Pros aren't the best example of speed, but while Sergio is doing that, Tiger is busy figuring out his shot.  He doesn't wait until Sergio's ball is done rolling before he asks his caddy for the yardage, examines his lie, etc.

[A.G._Crockett]

Shivas
If the management of a golf course requires the use of carts, then restricts the carts to the cartpath, play WILL be slow.  This is especially true on many CCFAD courses with containment contours that make it harder and slower to walk from the cartpath to the fairway and back, rather than down the fairway directly to a ball.

I absolutely agree that the primary culprit is the golfer rather than management, but that doesn't mean that management can't better the situation.

[Max Behr]

There's one way and one way only to build speed of play into design. Unfortunately those bumble-heads out there in Golf Land and even those on here are never going to figure it out until;

They read and completely understand MAX BEHR and his entire philosophy on golf and its architecture!!!!

TE Paul... Enough already! Will you please let me rest in peace! You're getting worse than Daniel Webster rolling over in his grave asking.. "How goes the Union?"

[Brian_Ewen]

Ally Smith
I would start by banning golfers that use Powacaddys

BE

[allysmith]

Chivas,

I think you have hit the nail on the head. If there were more 'bounce' games played in matchplay format then more 'picking up when out of the hole' would exist.

On the same note perhaps more Stableford type competitions would encourage the old Scottish way of picking up when not in the 'game'.

Brian old buddy its a Talisman not a powacaddy and its extra fast.

Ally

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