St.Andrews 2000 (Pics)

[A_Clay_Man]

Just a sampling of the more natural.

[Marty Bonnar]

Brian,
Regarding the diagram board showing the Par 6 4th. What's to stop a player simply hitting to the 'first' lay up spot on the 'second' fairway from the tee? Is there a mountain in between??

FBD.

[Brian_Ewen]

FBD
Its a good spot .

I had friend come down here last year , who is a scratch golfer and hits it miles , he took one look at the route you ask about and he made it easy . I reckon its probably about 280 yards this way . But since then the club has planted a lot of trees to discourage it and I doubt he could do it this year.

BE

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

Perhaps you should review the pictures that Brian posted and compare them with the pictures that you posted, and then tell me that St Andrews 2000 isn't on Sandpines steroids.

But, before doing so, might I suggest that you visit your local eye doctor to correct your obtuse and oblique vision and to also get fitted with a pair of non-rose colored glasses.

You can't be serious.
If you are, might I suggest that you get out of the desert sun.

Are you certain that the pond/lake you pictured wasn't required for water retention and irrigation purposes ?

[Brian Phillips]

Adam,

Print out both sets of photos and then tell me which course is more pleasing to the eye.

Although Sandpines also looks completely manufactured at least it looks finished.  The planting at Sandpines is indigenous, is it at St.Andrews 2000?

At eye level I would bet that Sandpines looks a lot more natural than St.Andrews 2000.  The lakes on both courses look like plasticine because of the lack of buffer planting along the banks.

I just don't think that St.Andrews 2000 comes even close to Sandpines in beauty..

Brian

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is that par 3 16th a biarritz?  It looks like a wicked swale.  

Pretty dramatic and severe hole, IMHO.  

I think I'd like to play it.

Another thing I noticed was Muirhead's attention to detail.

One of the photos shows a couple of rock groupings near a tee.  There is gravel running between two.  I doubt this was coincidence, yet the significance is beyond me.

[A_Clay_Man]

Those pictures make Sandpines look natural.

Where's the self righteous indignation from the cognoscente  ?

Pat, I just posted the pics. You're the one who made the statement. Hope your having fun in FL. You were missed.
And on your second point, I guess you are it

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

Yes, I did, and I stand by it.

Yes, you appear to be right, I do appear to be it,
which confirms my beliefs.

Florida was great and I made what appears to be a great discovery, for me.  The new Odyssey two ball blade putter.
It lines up very well for me.  I tried the original with no noticeable results, but, I've always been a blade putter, and this new two ball blade worked great for me.  Others who played with me and witnessed my improved putting immediately went out and bought one for themselves.
All of them have indicated that they are putting better.
If you're a blade putter, or have difficulty lining up, trying one may be a worthwhile experiment.

It also appears that effluent water is causing some clubs in south Florida some rather substantial problems.
It appears that the provider of effluent water cannot provide and guarantee "golf course acceptable" water, and that microbes in the water are having a highly negative effect upon the golf courses, especially the putting surfaces.

Rather then render their contracts with the effluent water supplier null and void due to a breach of contract, and return to "purer" water, some of these clubs are contemplating regrassing, hoping that the new grass will better tolerate the inferior grade of effluent water.  Papsalum, mini verde, tiffsport and other strains are being field tested on trial field greens.

That would seem to be an expensive and risky roll of the dice  

Regrassing to accomodate inferior water that suffers from poor quality control, rather then fixing the inferior water problem at the supply point seems like a formula for disaster, and an extremely costly experiment, which, if it fails could result in the clubs having real problems with the quality of their playing surfaces and their ability to attract and retain members.

This seems to be short sighted thinking on the clubs part and  would seem to hinge on the appeal that effluent water is cheaper, but you can always buy an inferior product for less money, and if you can't provide a quality product, with so many quality products in the immediate area, how long before you become second rate or perish ?

Once again, the front wheels of the car and front gate theory appear to have been reaffirmed.

[A_Clay_Man]

Fascinating Patrick. I wonder if a result might not be less watering and firmer lower cut bermuda grass or paspalum? And maybe an acceptable level of brown will come to pass, too. Ther irony is most of the florida designs(stereotypical) aren't designed for much more than the aerial game, are they?

Payback will be a female canine.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

A clayman,

A lower cut on the greens proved disastrous as the percolation of the greens have been dramatically affected by the effluent water.

[DPL11]

Pat,

Most problems from effluent water stem from the sodium levels that are a bi-product from processing the source. You are right about percolation rates, they are the first signs.

It can be fixed through buffering the water before it reaches the golf course, usually at the courses pump house facility.

Many clubs are considering Paspalum for its ability to thrive in high salt content water conditions.

Doug

[Patrick_Mucci]

DPL 11,

I think this particular problem may be related to the storage of the water after it's treated with chlorine, and not a sodium problem.

Apparently, the effluent water is treated with chlorine, and then stored.  I believe that chlorine may have a limited shelf life or efffective time of treatment.  As time passes, and the effectiveness of the chlorine disapates, the microbes accelerate their growth, and when the water is subsequently pumped to the golf course, it is heavily contaminated.

It would appear that there are a number of problems associated with effluent water, and I don't believe that the supplier can deliver water absent any of these problems, hence, I've suggested that the clubs render their contracts null and void, and pay the necessary costs to return to their prior water supply.

[DPL11]

Pat,

That may well be the case where you were. I have a good friend who is supt. at Old Memorial, and their situation was more sodium related. I believe many problems can be associated with its use, but options are slim indeed.

Doug

[Patrick_Mucci]

DPL 11,

It would seem to me, where a club isn't forced or legislated into using effluent water, that they should hold off doing so until the myriad of problems associated with this water are resolved, and, I don't know if they can be, without substantially driving up the cost of the water.

Why would a club freely choose this risky option ?

[DPL11]

Pat,

It's the easy and politically correct way to secure a guanteed water source to get a project off the ground. A lot of clubs probably feel that they will deal with consequences later.

Is it smart? Probably not, but when water is such a valuable neccessity, it is sometimes the only option to get a project started.

Doug

[Patrick_Mucci]

DPL 11,

These are not new clubs, they are clubs that have been in existence for 30, 40 or more years, clubs that have a clear and long history with non-effluent water sources.

[Brian_Ewen]

Guys
Since the pics are still uploaded , I thought it was worth bringing this thread back up , as this course will be hosting this weeks Asian Tour event .

It has changed it name since [again] , to St.Andrews Hill .

I will be interested to hear what pro's make of it .

Regards.
Brian

[Brian_Ewen]

http://www.sportinglife.com/golf/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=golf/05/11/01/GOLF_Hole.html


PAR SIX THE THIN END OF THE WEDGE?

A par six hole measuring an incredible 878 yards is being played on the Asian Tour in Thailand this week. And, not surprisingly, it has caused a mixed reaction.

The hole is at the St Andrews Hill club - and is one of two par sixes on the normal lay-out, but for the Double A International Open the other has been reduced to a par five.

Thailand's Wisut Artjanawat said: "I don't think it's good. Golf should only have par three, par four or par five holes - that was how this game was created.

"Of course we'll play it as it is, but you really need to hit three good strikes and hit a short wedge in to have a chance to be on the green in regulation. It's just too long a hole."

American Gerry Norquist commented: "It's a tough hole. It's unique that we have a par six for the first time on tour.

"All of us will have to learn to play it as it is, but I have to say I've never seen anything like this before."

In practice, Norquist hit a driver followed by a four iron, three wood and a wedge onto the green.

The hole has two fairways split by a lake and players have various options of tackling the hole. A risky option is a brave tee shot which needs to carry trees and water for a shorter route to the green.

England's Chris Rodgers said: "It would be a strong par five if they brought the tee box forward. I've never played anything like this in my life, but I don't mind it.

"It was a bit of a cross-wind today, but if you're playing into the wind, it's going to be really hard."

Asian Tour Chief Executive Louis Martin added: "It's a great golf course and a fantastic club.

"The club has two par six holes in its original design and we felt that we should be playing the tournament using the traditional accepted maximum of a par five.

"But out of respect to the club, we agreed on a compromise of keeping one par six and reducing the other hole into a par five.

"It's against the norm to have a par six hole, but we don't believe this is against the integrity of the game as the players still have to put the ball into the hole.

"I'm a staunch traditionalist and it is very difficult for me to get my mind round having to play a drive, six iron, three wood and know that I still got a wedge to the hole.

"There is water everywhere. It will be a mental game playing that hole for the pros."

[ChipOat]

And just who the hell is "Thomas" Naccarato?

Thomas???  This DG cannot survive on that basis!!!!!!!!

[Jim Nugent]

Podunk that I am, the course looks cool to me.  Would probably enjoy playing it a great deal.  

[JNC Lyon]

When the first guy from Thailand says that the game was created to have only par threes, fours and fives, what is he thinking??? Clearly this player has no knowledge of golf history, as he would know that golf has been around for hundreds of years, and part has only been part of the game for a little over one hundred years, that game was created with NO par.  Shows how much some tour players know about golf and its origins.

[Brian_Ewen]

JNC_Lyon
Correct , and it had me shaking my head as well .

But then again it shouldnt , considering the types of courses he is used to playing in Thailand .

I am sure he believes all courses must be 18 holes , a Par 72 , and the 9th must return to the clubhouse as well .

This is why the Golf World is a sadder place without Desmond Muirhead . IMHO.

Is there any designer out there today that would have the guts to build a par 6 hole , if he felt it was the right thing to do ? .

Regards.
Brian

PS. Jim , whats a "Podunk" ? , as I must be one as well .

[Jim Nugent]

PS. Jim , whats a "Podunk" ? , as I must be one as well .

Brian, here's a dictionary definition:  "A small isolated town, region, or place that is regarded as unimportant."  

So I've been mis-using the word all these decades.  To me it was a humorous way to call someone kind of unsophisticated, a hick, a bit Gomer Pylish.  

BTW, the photos are excellent.  

[ForkaB]

I LOVE this 878 "par" 6 and how it is eating into the "brains" of some of these pros!

Maybe Desmond was really the future of golf, and we will only understand this after we see how creative and effective some of his ideas were vs. all those other architects out there who are just trying their best to copy Old Tom Morris and Mackenzie.........

[Brian_Ewen]

Jim
Okay , so I am not a podunk , but my town definitely is .

Rich
Its hard to like a hole that you have never finished ! .

Yet looking at the first round scores , it doesnt seem to have caused the mayhem that I was expecting , although there has been scores from a 4 to a 10 at it .

And hey a Scotsman jointly leads with a 66 .

If anyone fancys playing this course or any others on the Eastern Coast of Thailand , then drop me a line , and I can pass on advice or arrange a game.

The Far East is once again my preferred choice of winter destination this year , and I arrive in the area on the 26th of Nov. ,  staying until Scotland warms up .

I do plan to travel around the area with my clubs , but I am never far away from the golf societies of Pattaya .

Golf and Beer are both cheap and friendly .

Also intend to be spectating at the Asian Tours end of season tournament at Thai CC in Dec. , and the European Tour event in January at the yet to open Schmidt/Curley Amata Spring CC . [ How does a course that isnt open get a Tour event ?]

So if you are in the area let me know .

Regards.
Brian