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grandwazo

Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2003, 11:20:21 PM »
one more thing, each architect also provides a 200-300 page document breaking down the existing course, and then what each of their design changes would entail and why they need to be done.  There is a tremendous amount of detail included from what I could see, including before and computer generated "after" pictures of specific areas as well costing tools broken down by tees, greens, bunkers, fairways, etc and it would appear to be an invaluable tool that helps the green committee and the board of governors not only "sell" the membership on the project, but helps the people overseeing the project stay on task no matter how long the process may take.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2003, 08:39:26 AM »
Grandwazo makes some thoughtful remarks. The design/architect work is always filled with nuances which cannot possibly be known to the outsider — while $200,000 may in fact be too much to pay, we do not know that — nor are we expected to.

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_McDowell

Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2003, 08:47:55 AM »
This is a really intersting thread. In Jeff Mingay's first post, he clearly leans toward feeling $200,000 is too much for the architectural drawings.

Then a number of people not in the design profession go on to say run.

Then a number of well-respected designers say it may not be too much.

Given the information that Jeff presented it is impossible to know whether the $200,000 is a good value. It might be it might not be.

What I find so interesting is that we all acknowledge the countless past mistakes of well-intention, but inexperienced green committees. But when it's time to pay the bill for someone with experience, the tendency is to balk.

The other thing I find interesting is that many people who think the fee isn't justified are more experienced and educated than the average green committee person.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 08:49:07 AM by Jeff_McDowell »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2003, 08:51:01 AM »
Grandwazo,
200-300 page document??  The one done for Lehigh was maybe 25 pages and the restoration didn't turn out too bad  ;)  

A_Clay_Man

Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2003, 09:07:13 AM »
No offense to all you pros out there, but isn't this an almost textbook example of why archies(collective) have such a bad rep?
In every industry there are bad apples, indivduals who intentionally conceive to deceive. They shouldn't taint everyone, but they do and then peoples reluctance to spill the beans, allows for further abuses.

With the lower costs of desktop publishing, why wouldn't someone balk at numbers such as these? If I were on the committee I would go immediatly to the mirror to see if sucker had somehow been printed on my forehead. If, thru their own lack of due diligence, the committee has hired a Titanic Thompson, they should get what they deserve. But if they fail to diseminate the truth, after the fact(because of embarrassement or ignorance) they are responsible for the practices continuation by that firm or individual.

Thank god there's a resource like this, so that the info can be shared, albeit, backchannel. Give us the name of your club and your archie and at least then, I'll know your serious.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2003, 09:22:16 AM »
Jeff Mingay,
How about a little more information?  At least validate some assumptions.  On the deal you presented, I assume the greens will not be rebuilt.  Is that correct?  Assuming they were not rebuilt in the first place and that this is truly a "classic" golf course they are probably push ups.  You are looking to expand them back to their original sizes and shapes and I'm guessing you will do this by mowing them out and/or sodding or seeding,..using old cores,...  How much in the way of detailed greens drawings are required for something like this?  

You also said 50-60 bunkers need to be restored (not knowing the size, is a reasonable estimate $5-10K per bunker).  Same cost estimate goes for the 18 tees.  Is $500-700K a reasonable estimate for the construction budget?  
Mark
« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 09:25:13 AM by Mark_Fine »

Jeff_McDowell

Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2003, 09:23:06 AM »
There are ways to get a better idea if $200,000 is a good value. I would start by calling this architect's past clients to see what was done and what it cost. You can also call other clubs that have gone through similar projects.

To be honest with you my first thought was that someone was trying to meet payroll. :-X

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2003, 10:41:03 AM »
No offense to all you pros out there, but isn't this an almost textbook example of why archies(collective) have such a bad rep?
In every industry there are bad apples, indivduals who intentionally conceive to deceive. They shouldn't taint everyone, but they do and then peoples reluctance to spill the beans, allows for further abuses.

With the lower costs of desktop publishing, why wouldn't someone balk at numbers such as these?

Adam,

I guess I didn't realizt that golf architects as a group were held in the same general esteem as, say ambulance chasing lawyers! ::)

Years (maybe eons) ago, professional organizations had "fee charts."  These have been struck down by courts as hindrances to competition.  The charts usually featured a sliding scale - up to 15% for a construction project under 100K, gradually reducing to about 7% for typical projects, of $2 Million or more, and dropping further for larger budgets.  This works because smaller, detail oriented projects require proportionally more time to do well than designing a new course!  That is why the % fee is higher for small projects. ON larger budget projects, the line on the paper for, say a cart path, is the same amount of work whether they make it of asphalt or gold plate it.  However, in other cases, larger budgets usually do result in more design time, but the fixed costs are set. The idea of using % of construction costs to estimate fees also works because it naturally accounts for inflation.

Most design professionals would love to get 7-10% on decent projects, and you would probably still find successful building architects, and engineers will charge that where they have complete plan, permitting and construction administration responsibility.  In some cases, like drawing plans for repeat clients like huge developers who take on responsibilities on their own, the fee can be as low as 3%.

Each architect must propose a fee based on his scope of service.  While outlawed years ago, nonetheless, many arhcitects still use these as one way to calculate a fee.  (The other considerations are the amount of time I think I will spend on the project, my current overhead, which includes office, payroll, and errors and omissions insurance, the cost of selling a job, which is, as noted, often years of free meetings, etc., and what the  market will bear, given my name recognition or special expertise for the job) to make proposals.

However, I can see the club's point of view, paying an additional 15% when you are doing a small project adds signifigantly to the present cost.  It does make it difficult to retain an architect for smaller projects.  Most of us are flexible to work out lesser service packages, but some architects (and not just name ones) have determined that it isn't worth our while to cut service scope, because a year from now, the club won't remember what it paid for your services, but they will remember if the project was done well and how often they saw you.  

In essence, its a time business, and what happens it the clubs get your fee down, but expect the same service, and grumble when they don't get them.  There are many clubs who keep jumping architects to find a cheaper alternative, ruining any continuity in their course for the sake of saving a few bucks.  They often end up spending more correcting the mistakes of inexperience.

While I understand that many people don't understand the value of design, I do find it a bit odd that this group would!  IIs Jeff M, since he's trying to get in the business, questioning whether an architect's time and expertise is worth something or if he is really just questioning the way the time is spent on plans versus field for this particular project? Or the architect his club selected?

Going back to Jeff M's example, I'll assume construction costs of 800K -$1M.  Then I would expect most design proposals to be around 8-10%, or $65-100,000 if it was all done in one season, perhaps more if spread out.  $200K would be 20-25%, which is higher than "normal." But, it may have included several other costs the architect added to the proposal for the convenience of the club, plus assuming a large legal responsibility, and the overhead it takes to run a business - that doesn't come cheap!  

Is it worth it?

"Name" architect can often charge more, and I presume Jeff's club was aware in advance when they selected the architect that they were going to pay more than any typical rate.  Many people will pay for a name brand.  You can argue a lesser known architect with more time to devote would give them an equal product and better attention, but it is more a brand name world out there than a personal relationship world!

Sorry to go on so long, but I thought you might enjoy a professional perspective on how design professionals set fees.....

 




Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

A_Clay_Man

Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2003, 11:13:27 AM »
Jeff- Thanx for the detailed reply. As for the bad rep, I may have taken some liberty but I put together the comments I've heard over the years, from random people within the industry (golf) and the reality that as art, the archie has been ignored as an artist.

I can't help but think that ego is a major part of their dissing, but I meant no insult to those who actually conduct their business fairly and honestly. I hope that was clear.


grandwazo

Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2003, 11:35:31 AM »
Mark Fine,
I saw at least two separate books from two different architects with an incredible amount of detail and they were both in the 200-300 page vicinity.  A lot of the info may have been repetitive, but from the brief reading I did both architects put a lot of effort into the information they were providing.

From a "selling" point of view, we appreciated the way each hole was described as it is today, the relative strengths and weaknesses of each hole and then how and why the work that was being suggested was important and how it would be accomplished.

We also focused on the cost/pricing matrix that was provided allowing us to see a specific breakdown of all the costs of the work that was going to be performed on each hole and across the entire golf course, allowing up the opportunity to say for example, this season we are going to do all the bunkers on holes 1-9 and it will cost "a", next season all the tees on the entire course and it will cost "b" or this season we will do only holes 1-6 and it will cost "c".  That type of info is invaluable and obviously a lot of work went in to it.


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2003, 11:46:10 AM »
I am forced to call Jeff Mingay's motives into question here.  What are you driving at Jeff?  You posted the topic and then when asked for more detailed information to give respondents a sense of the scope of the project so that better reaction could be offered, you have dissappeared. :-\  Jeff, you have been fully included on a GC construction project and have certainly had a chance to oversee these sort of design-construction styles and methods by various designer/constructors and firm based architects.  You ought to already know the answer to your question.  Are you trying to call attention to what you perceive as a rip-off?  Or, are you trying to get eager GCA.com respondents to reveal themselves and their basic level of knowlege or lack thereof and BIAS'es?  What's is up Jeff M?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2003, 11:51:47 AM »
Jeff Mingay:

Lots of responses here from fellow CGA, but I'm curious as to why you have not responded to some of the questions that everyone is posing to you?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

kwl

Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2003, 09:47:18 PM »
P 363.
Golf Course Architecture
Dr. Michael J. Hurdzan

"The cost of such a study depends on the golf architecture firm, the scope of the study, and what the committee wants for a final plan. The study is not a set of working drawings, but rather a conceptual representation that only shows relative size and location. If working drawings are required, the cost would be five times higher than for the concept or feature plan. Since it is not know if all the improvements will be approved, it is better to wait until the actual work is to begin before creating detailed working documents."

When all else fails, read the directions...seems like this is pretty close to the mark, huh?

 >:(
« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 09:48:30 PM by kwl »

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2003, 10:34:25 PM »
 8)

As Greens Committee chair you have to act like a real client..

Demand 10 copies of final report in writing and formal presentation materials that were produced.

Get hard copy and electronic copy of all work products you've paid $40,000 for.  

Ask for detailed cost breakout for the next phase of work and decision support.
 
Solicit independent or peer reviews of subject documentation.

Understand barriers to success, needs and resources.

Reconcile issues and make action plans.

Make decision to proceed, hold or abort.
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2003, 02:32:18 AM »
Jeff,

Thanks for your overview of how you set fees.  I've struggled with this quite a bit, because our services are somewhat different than others ... at the beginning our prices are compared with designers who make a few site visits, but then I'm putting an experienced associate on the job more or less full-time.

I'm sure you also feel, as I do, that if we can figure out a great design that costs less to build than others, our services should be worth more, not less, as they would be if fees were calculated on a percentage basis.

As to Jeff M's example, my response would depend on the architect's identity and how they work.  If the designer in question can draw plans detailed enough to enable the club to use a local contractor and not a specialized firm, they might be worth the $200K.

Likewise, if the designer could supply an associate/shaper who could accomplish most of the work with the club's staff in-house, $200K out of a $1 million budget wouldn't be unreasonable for taking the bull by its horns.

The follow-up question would be whether the charge for the plans will also include construction oversight.  If it's going to cost even more for that phase, then they probably ought to be looking for a second opinion or counter estimate.


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2003, 10:43:28 AM »
Adam,

"...example of why archies (collective) have such a bad rep.."

Gosh. I wasn't aware of this either. C&W's list includes hundreds (some deceased) you have never bashed here — plus about 120 more you've never bashed who are ASGCA members — plus I'll estimate another 150 worldwide you've probably never heard of.

Is your math fuzzy? Or is it that you have spent so much venting on GCA that it simply SEEMS as if this is the case?

Perhaps 2004 will soften your outlook. Remarks such as these distance you...more than that ol' NM state line already has!
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

ian

Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2003, 11:34:40 AM »
Jeff McD,

Since I made the first comment of Run, and run away fast.

So you know, I'm a architect who sticks mostly to renovations and restorations.

Unless that quote also covers supervision, "in my opinion" the club can get better value from a  LOT of other well qualified and VERY capable architects. As Forrest pointed ou there are a lot of architects in practice


Adam,

"...example of why archies (collective) have such a bad rep.."

Huh??????
Don't judge an industry by one or two "stars" There is a whole group of architects who do a lot of work because they flat out enjoy being architects.

There are architects building public golf because they believe in public golf. They will never make it to a golf publication because the budgets and sites are very minimal. Since I know the comeback will be give me an example, look at what Kirk Triplet's up to; you may be impressed.

The other issue here is last time I checked America was still the home of free enterprise. If someone can get $200,000, how does that effect their reputation?


I still stick by the idea that it is up to a golf club to make prudent decisions on who they use and how much they pay them.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2003, 11:54:50 AM »
One thing I've noticed in my 36+ hard fought years on this planet is that there is a natural skepticism of anything anyone else is doing! The other guy always has it easier, he's always making more than he serves, he's always getting the lucky breaks, etc. Couple this with the money involved and it's easy to see how people get fired up.

Then there's Adam, who worked on the trading floors in Chicago, which is quite possibly the purest and ugliest form of capitalism on the face of the earth - consider this next time you're shaking your head at one of his posts. :)

As stated by several others, it's pretty much impossible to make any sort of informed judgement on this with the tiny little carrot that Jeff dangled before us. My first inclination after reading Jeff's post was to put my t shirt business up for sale & start working on my drafting skills, but, as several architects noted, it might be money well spent. Or it might not.

Next time you're getting fired up about money, take this advice that one of my clients gave me: sometimes how you spend your money matters more than how much you spend.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

ian

Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2003, 12:22:20 PM »
George,

What if I said this was for a renovation for Oakland Hills by Rees Jones? (THIS IS A GUESS NOT FACT)

Does that alter your opinion?


As for Adam, many of us are part of the industry and when he says it has a bad rep. that includes us. Are we not to respond? He didn't offend me because I expand ladies tees for a living ;D (stolen from Silva), but its a strong statement to let go.


When I respond to the amount, its because its based upon what I charge. I also know what many of the renovation experts I respect/admire charge because I occasionally interview against them for work. Its a lot of coin.

"sometimes how you spend your money matters more than how much you spend."

I have no arguement to that statement, other than why pay $2. for $1. work?

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2003, 12:41:48 PM »
I must admit that I am taken aback by the $200,000 figure.  After readingthe various possible explanations by the esteemed architects who post here I am struck by a couple of things.  

1) The costs of golf have spiraled out of control and the result is an industry with declining participation and an imminent shake out of some courses.  We can hope that in the coming year the situation improves due to the rebounding economy.  

In an earlier post, an estimate of 20 hours per bunker was used to expense the drawings.  Is this a valid time estimate?  The other estimate of $5k-$10k per bunker repair/restoration meets with my experience.  Is it reasonable to think that $3k+ would be involved in the design of that bunker?  

2)  As poster here, I would suggest that many of us are guilty of making comment outside of economic reality.  It seems essential that part of our comments should be tempered by the understanding that each of these projects are expensive and must be paid for by someone.  

At one of the GOLFWEEK retreats the attending panelists were asked to make suggestions to French Lick.  One of the most valuable of the many leesons that came out of that process was that bottomless pockets are a rare occurance.  

As I begin my tenure as Green Chair at a mid level private club with a solid if not spectacular course, the marching orders I am weighing are how to best create interest and excitement on the golf course without spending a lot of money;  Changes in mowing patterns, some minor bunker repair, and analyzing which equipment purchases will meet our needs without busting the bank.  Remembering always that any irreversible changes should only be done with the consultation of an appropriate professional.    

As we enjoy our avocation these discussions about actual costs and how the future of the facility will be affected are essential.  I don't know of any othe rplace where we are lucky enough to have access to the likes of T. Doak, N. Meagher, and F. Richardson.  (Sorry for the ones I missed).

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2003, 12:46:12 PM »
Ian -

As I said before, I can't make any sort of judgement without knowing more. I can't even really say your hypothetical with Rees would change things for me, other than I would sit here & hope that he showed more sympathy toward Ross than he's shown toward some others. But that's really more of a aesthetic issue than a money issue.

As for Adam, I certainly don't expect any of you to ignore his comments, I'm simply trying to share some insight into his unique outlook. I don't think his view of architects is at all pervasive, among golfers at large or even the many armchair critics who populate this site. I have nothing but the utmost respect for everyone in the profession - I think there are a lot easier ways to make a buck, if that's all one's after.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

A_Clay_Man

Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2003, 01:19:13 PM »
I'll come to my own defense and say that I didn't say those things, I heard them.

If you want to live in a vacuum and think any industry doesn't have it share of charoletans, than you go ahead and keep questioning my UNBIASED observations.

I don't bash architects, forrest, I bash bad architecture.

I did say this:  

"I meant no insult to those who actually conduct their business fairly and honestly. I hope that was clear."

Maybe it wasn't? or...
« Last Edit: December 31, 2003, 01:23:19 PM by A_Clay_Man »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2004, 12:23:11 AM »
Adam,

"I don't bash architects, Forrest, I bash bad architecture."

I like this quote. Really.

But...a question: Don't you mean the following:

"I don't bash architects, Forrest, I bash architecture that me and a few others feel is unworthy based on our collective agreement that it is not what we feel is best for this particular place and time in the genesis of golf, a game which has outlived everyone we've ever known, everyone we will ever know, and — in reality — is an ocean compared to the small bubble we occupy as we glide along either singing the praises or complaining bitterly."
« Last Edit: January 01, 2004, 12:24:14 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2004, 12:51:32 AM »
Why do we keep responding to this. Jeff has dissappeared, offered up nothing else, and everyone is taking sides without full knowledge. I say pull this thread
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

A_Clay_Man

Re:$200,000 worth of drawings
« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2004, 10:00:49 AM »
Forrest- With a statement like this: (your version of what I wrote)

"I bash architecture that me and a few others feel is unworthy based on our collective agreement that it is not what we feel is best for this particular place and time in the genesis of golf, a game which has outlived everyone we've ever known, everyone we will ever know, and — in reality — is an ocean compared to the small bubble we occupy as we glide along either singing the praises or complaining bitterly."

I really wonder if you are just too close to your craft as an association member? It's admirable that you stick-up for your fellow members, living and dead, but your personal attacks on me over the past, leads me to think I touched a nerve. Especially since I am not really a basher, per se, yet you've categorized me that way. And even had me believing it. But I defy you to go thru the ranks and find me bashing on a consistent basis.

If you honestly think that I have conversations with other contributors here, and there has been a pre-conceived agenda, you are either pissed, or dillusional. I guess both are possible?

I had hoped my distance from anything industry related would've been a valuable perspective to someone, other than the corporate yes men syndrome, that pervades the B.S. that is political,  committee or corporate life.

My opinions are just that, and have all been based on my experiences golfing. The fact that I decided to delve deeper into the differences I have seen in gca, and can appreciate the internal stirrings of certain courses, that just happen to
follow certain pricnicples over others, is how I formulated my opinions. If they jibe with others who have found the truth in books or from other sources, should be validation to both.

Please stop the personal attacks, they are not very professional and are telling. As for the paranoia that there's a collective conspiracy to bash, you are the one in left field.


« Last Edit: January 01, 2004, 10:10:35 AM by A_Clay_Man »

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