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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Older members who are opposed to change
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2003, 09:58:23 AM »
The old guys ain't always wrong.  Many years ago they fought valiantly to save a Donald Ross original smack in the middle of town here that hosted the U. S. Women's Open won by Amy Alcott in the early 1980's.   What they got instead was a billy-goat Nicklaus cart-ball track in the burbs.    

Some of the older movers and shakers in town are no doubt shaking their heads as they try to figure out how they will mount the elevated first green and eighteenth tee at another storied venue here in town when their course re-opens this summer.  

Regards,

Mike

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Older members who are opposed to change
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2003, 10:08:05 AM »
Joel:

Any time a restoration project is proposed, it seems the same issues get brought up:

1 - don't cut down our trees
2 - don't spend any money
3 - everything is fine the way it is, why would you want to change it?
4 - older members 'remember' the course the way it is now is how it always was - despite the fact that photos show otherwise
5 - why do you want to make it (tougher/easier - view depends on handicap, generally)?
6 - people want to project their own games into any proposed changes

Just a few that I have noticed.

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Older members who are opposed to change
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2003, 10:11:19 AM »
also, kevin said:

>There is no doubt that trees make the course more difficult...particularly on tee shots where there is little margin for error.  And in many peoples minds, difficulty is an inherent characteristic of a quality course.  So, the thinking goes, reducing difficulty reduces quality.



A great response to this thought pattern (which is quite prevalent  :'( )  is to suggest that if they REALLY want to make the course more difficult - why not just plant trees in front of the tees and in front of the greens?   ;)


« Last Edit: December 26, 2003, 10:11:46 AM by Paul Richards »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Older members who are opposed to change
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2003, 10:38:01 AM »
 I agree that it is not necessarily "the old members" who are opposed to change.It seems to be more of a status quo mentality.As one who engages members often on the tree issue i offer these observations.
   *members want their opinion respected.They have a right to their views since they pay their dues.
   *It is more productive to ask questions like"Do you know how those trees on #7 got there and when? Do you know what Flynn(or whoever) said about the use of trees?Do you know the difference between  strategic uses of trees versus penal and which our course is?Do you know there is photographic evidence that shows when these trees were planted?"
   *Make the distinction between beautiful specimen trees that are out of play versus conifers that affect play and ruin strategy.
     *If you want change you need to work overtime .I think we expect people to just say "ok" as soon as we open our mouths.
      *I needed to learn that those who disagreed were not "idiots".It helps people to change if i stop hammering them.

     The best thing i have learned is that i must learn to be more creative when speaking to people about this.I have much to learn but the goal of seeing my home course as Flynn envisioned it motivates me.

       I thougt Gil Hanse  had a great thought in our Master Plan-------Trees are often planted to cover up bad designs.If your design is great there is no need for trees.
   
   Steve Lang

       If there is no hardship to hitting from the left of that par 5 then it is bad design.Have you thought of ground hazards either in that landing area or for the next shot.Wouldn't that be more fun and challenging?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2003, 10:39:02 AM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Older members who are opposed to change
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2003, 12:12:06 PM »
Joel,

While making generalizations is often dangerous and unfair, as a rule, "old" people do not like to spend money.  This characteristic does not appear to be influenced significantly by the amount of cash flow or wealth (as a bartender during college for a caterer with its own private banquet facility, I often found that tipping and wealth were inversely related).

What these folks do have is quite of bit of spare time and a great need to feel useful and needed.  Perhaps the decision makers at your club may wish to identify the strongest opposition to the changes, and bring them in one-on-one to a breakfast or lunch where the improvements are explained in a very basic way.  This may be time consuming in the front end,
but it sure beats creating a lot of ill will poisoning the atmosphere at the club.

It seems to me that the cost of removing trees should not be a capital item which would cause an assessment or a dues increase.  If this is true, and the disruption to play is not significant, the well documented benefits should be sufficient to bring a large number of the naysayers to your side.  Pesonally, I believe that the combination of removing some trees and firming up the grounds should make the Lake course more interesting and playable for most types of players, and maybe even a tad more difficult for the "Sticks".

I wonder what would happen if Olympic would publish a short pamphlet of its tree removal plan in layman's language, followed by a couple of live Q & A sessions and then a vote of the membership?  It seems to me, that this would be an appropriate way of addressing the issue, and those who disagree with the results strongly could always find a place more suited to their desires.  My recollection is that Olympic has a 10 year or so waiting list, right?

 
D. Siebert-

I don't wish to imply that I represent the concensus opinion of this site, but I see no inconsistancy with the call for selective tree removal and the desire for some quirk in our golf.  From what I gather, few here call for creating unfairness in building a course.  What is objected to here is wholesale bulldozing of natural land features to manufacture acres of uniform, mostly level, driving range-type hitting areas.  I don't know anyone who calls for a construction or maintenance regime which results in bad lies (from a lack of turf).

Personally, I do like trees on the course, preferably in the periphery of holes.  I don't like them right off the tee, and I really abhor them when they create a tunnel all the way to the hole (#7 at Pasatiempo?).  Two or three holes out of 18 with sentinel trees to require some thought in shot placement and shape is perfectly okay in my book.  As a rule, however, I don't like trees guarding the fronts of greens which require moon shots with anything longer than a very short iron and do not have a ground option available (#18 at PBGL).    Trees guarding the entries to par 3s should be de-facto illegal and posted for removal with a bounty.