[Tommy_Naccarato]

[Craig Disher]

Tommy,
Thanks for posting this.

What is the date of the article?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Craig,
I'm sending you this in Adobe Acrobat in email--full size, better quality and just because you deserve it.

[ian]

WOW!

Thanks Tommy, again wow.

I found it interesting to read that 18 was based upon MacKenzie's hole rather than an actual hole. High praise for the doctor. The description were facinating, I'm still thinking about the hole concepts wondering what he would have done in other properties of that time.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Tommy,

You are the MAN! Merry Christmas Emperor. Lido will rise.

[TEPaul]

Thanks for that write-up. That golf course sure doesn't look or sound to me like something that had values that somehow repressed the Golden Age of golf architecture for a very long time. And if that golf course was something that represented Man's ultimate arrogance because it was almost wholly created by the hand of man (Macdonald/Raynor) then all I can say is long live Man's ultimate arrogance in golf course architecture!! And I cannot help but believe that Max Behr would've agreed!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

Interesting how NGLA seems to be the center of his architectural universe.

[TEPaul]

NGLA didn't just seem to be the center of Macdonald's architectural universe it was the center of his architectural universe.

I don't know this for a fact but it seems to me that in the last 10-12 years of Macdonald's life he withdrew from the world and back into NGLA. He certainly withdrew from the architectural world in that time and back into NGLA. If I were to guess I'd say that Macdonald did not seem to be a happy man in those last 10-12 years. One might call him depressed!

[GeoffreyC]

Thanks for that write-up. That golf course sure doesn't look or sound to me like something that had values that somehow repressed the Golden Age of golf architecture for a very long time. And if that golf course was something that represented Man's ultimate arrogance because it was almost wholly created by the hand of man (Macdonald/Raynor) then all I can say is long live Man's ultimate arrogance in golf course architecture!! And I cannot help but believe that Max Behr would've agreed!

Tom-

I agree whole heartedly.  I wish that someone would bankroll the recreation/cloning of The LIDO.  Perhaps in the Sand Hills area but better still if someone could get some waterfront property. What a tribute to MacDonald that would be.  He was certainly a visionary beyond what I had even imagined previously.  

Tommy- Thank you for those articles. I had read a bit about LIDO from George's book, Scotland's Gift, Geoff's books, Dan Wexler's book and other books such as The MGA book and Bill Quirin's America's Linksland but this contemporary account really hits home. It was the first example within the golfing community of what man, science, society can accomplish. I believe that Jacob Bronowski (author of "The ascent of man" among other great books) would have approved.  

[SPDB]

I don't really understand the title of this thread, or what it has to do with its contents.

Anyway, did anybody notice that CBM referred to the 17th at Piping as both an Alps and Short hole? Maybe people are giving too much credence to one man's description of a course he designed, when he can't remember a course he designed.  

I note that he was prone to some of the modern day self-flattery that architects engage in.

[TEPaul]

Sean:

I did notice Macdonald mentioned Piping Rock's 17th twice, once as the "short it is and once when he must have meant to say the 12th which is Piping's "alps". It was probably a typo.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean, then simply pass by it with your mouse cursor.

Merry Fucking Christmas to you too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

I noticed the Piping Rock error, and would agree with the typo, and that CBM's words have to be filtered.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Perhaps Macdonald's words should be filtered to some small extent but when you start telling us that when he says the Redan at NGLA was "absolutely natural" and you say it was "heavily manufactured" perhaps you're taking the filtering of his words a bit too far!  

[SPDB]

Tommy -

I'm hoping you have a christmas, free and clear of any insults. All things pure (e.g. golf architecture) should be untethered by pejoratives.

I gave up on the last thread when it turned into yet another Tom M./Pat M. pissing match, so if this thread is in response to that, my apologies for hijacking it. But you have to understand that speculation on a course about which there is very little to be had in the way of primary resources is bound to be revisionist. But an architect's own prospective account of the course isn't going to change that reality much.

What are you so upset about, and why fly off the handle at me, especially on X-mas eve?

Pat/Tom - Of course I knew it was a typo, hence the subsequent comments and smileys.

It seems like everybody here is taking a course about which they know nothing, a little bit too seriously.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Pat:

Perhaps Macdonald's words should be filtered to some small extent but when you start telling us that when he says the Redan at NGLA was "absolutely natural" and you say it was "heavily manufactured" perhaps you're taking the filtering of his words a bit too far!  

If, after spending a good deal of time examining that green complex, you feel that that green complex is "absolutely natural", then your powers of observation are worthless.

In addition, could you cite for me where MacDonald said that the Redan at NGLA was "absolutely natural" ?

I do recall that he said that he found the ideal site for a Redan, but I don't ever recall him describing that golf hole as having been "absolutely natural".

The green complexes at NGLA are heavily manufactured, to think otherwise is dilusional.

P.S.  Merry Christmas
 

[TEPaul]

Pat Mucci asked;

"In addition, could you cite for me where MacDonald said that the Redan at NGLA was "absolutely natural"?"

Sure Pat, no problem at all. In my post #113 on the "Jumping the shark" thread I quoted Macdonald on his NGLA Redan;

"Strange as it may seem, we had but to look back and find a perfect Redan which was absolutely natural."
(C.B. Macdonald "Scotland's Gift Golf" page 188)

And you're accusing me of not reading or understanding posts?? If that's not bad enough you actually COPIED that quote of Macdonald's from my post #113 and put it in your post #114 and apparently you STILL didn't read it, notice it  or understand it!

You're amazing Pat. Would it help you to notice what Macdonald said about his own Redan if I hung it in lights in Times Square on New Year's Eve???  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You're correct, I did find the quote on page 188, which proves that even a clock that's stopped is correct twice a day.  On the previous page he refers to the site as ideal.

However, if you think that the 4th hole at NGLA is "absolutely natural", then you and CBM have been partaking of the same spirits.

The setting of the ridge may be natural, but that green is as manufactured as they come.

One only has to stand behind the green to see the sharp, crisp, steep constructed slopes and the elevated construction which departs from the immediate surroundings of the green to see that it's anything but natural.

You yourself admited same when you viewed the hole from that angle.

CBM can say what he wants, unless someone came in and redid that green complex, what exists there today doesn't come close to being "absolutely natural"

I submit that he was referencing the ridge line as being a perfect setting for a redan green, and from that ridge he constructed his green with its steep slopes front and back.

Those ridges on holes # 3, # 4 and # 5 are all gentle in slope.
Nowhere among them will you find sudden, sharp, steep slopes like those that form the front and back of the 4th green.

It's a matter of what you want to believe,
what you read in a book, or,
what you see with your own eyes.

You already admited that the 4th green was very much constructed when you were on site a month or so ago, and examined it with your own eyes, and now you're reversing what you declared, after reading one sentence from a book.

Which am I to believe, your eye witness account, or
your interpretation of what he wrote ?

If you think he just planted grass and threw some sand at the base of that ridge, your evaluative eye has to be questioned.

[SPDB]

Pat -
Most greensites are "heavily manufactured," what makes you think NGLA is so special in that regard? The push up on a green-end doesn't prevent the entire hole from being "natural"

p.s. merry christmas

[Jeff Goldman]

If you guys could stop bickering for a minute   I want to thank The Emperor (and the rest of you) for bringing this stuff to us who don't see as much as others do; it's terrific.  As an aside, I noticed that the article lists par for each hole.  So much for Notre Dame's course trying to "recapture" the earlier era.  Happy holiday to all (except me, who's stuck in the office again).  

Jeff Goldman

[wsmorrison]

The Lido GC was a 1917 project and The Creek was 1925. How do you reconcile the construction and engineering lessons that Macdonald and Raynor must have learned in executing the tremendous design/engineering job required at Lido (especially the reclaiming of land) with the many problems of the water holes at the later-built Creek?  

It would seem that the lessons learned in creating Lido should've spared the design problems at The Creek and saved many tens of thousands of dollars that were required to fix the course in the later 1920s.  There was evidently so much friction between the club and Macdonald, a founding member, that he eventually resigned from the board and maybe the club.

It would've made a better story if Macdonald learned from his mistakes at The Creek and then went on to conquer nature so to speak at a later date with Lido.

I don't see the building of Lido as a negative; a slap in the face of nature.  Macdonald was building something his clients wanted on a site of their selection.  He was free not to take on the commission.  Given that he did, I am sure he was challenged by the project and took it on with the intention of creating something special.  I applaud his efforts both in design and construction.

William Flynn built the Indian Creek CC (1930) on top of a man-made island built to 2' above sea level in Miami, FL.  The entire golf course, some of it nearly 35' above sea level, was added on according to Flynn's design and built by Toomey and Flynn Construction.  By the look of the land, most would have a difficult time figuring out that it is not a natural land formation, a divergence from Macdonald's preference.  I think this was a worthwhile effort and gave the residents and members exactly what they wanted and continues to do so 70 years later.

I regret the happenings, nefarious or otherwise that contributed to the demise of Lido.  Thanks to some great research by George, Craig, Tommy, and others we can appreciate this NLE project while short of being there.

Gotta get ready for holiday dinner tonight.  Merry Christmas to all.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean,
Nice to see that your trying to be so pure, innocent and without fault (condescending) this holiday season.

Wayne, Just to let you know that construction of the Lido started in late summer 1914, and the course was ready for play in early 1916.

Here is another image of the dredging operation for Lido.

[A_Clay_Man]

Two things: One, by pumping the lagoon wasn't he just trying to hurry up nature by forming his own "linksland"?

Two, In the article he referenced the 3 shotter that could be played to 100 yard long 30 yard wide stip of fair green, to the right, changing par to a two shotter. This cavalier attitude towards the value of par is a good thing,considering present circumstances.

[SPDB]

Tommy -
I don't see what you are getting so sensitive and insulting for. I don't understand what revisionist descriptions of Lido prompted this "non-revisionist" post.

As for letting my mouse float by, how the heck am I supposed to know what the thread is about? really?

What you posted is a great historical piece - I'm sorry if I didn't thank you for posting it originally. Why so hostile?

Merry x-mas,
Sean

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Pat -
Most greensites are "heavily manufactured,"

Would you explain how the greensites at Garden City Golf Club are "heavily manufactured" ?

what makes you think NGLA is so special in that regard?
The push up on a green-end doesn't prevent the entire hole from being "natural"

Sure it does, if a component of a hole, a vital component is artificial, then the ENTIRE hole can't be natural.  That's just common sense.

Categorizing the greens at NGLA as push-up greens reflects a total lack of understanding with respect to the construction and form of the greens at NGLA.

Do you think the tees at NGLA are natural, or heavily constructed ?  Let's start with the first hole and go through all 18.

I'd stick to a subject where you have a reasonable degree of knowledge and familiarity.  You're out of your league on this one.

p.s. merry christmas

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