[Mark_Fine]

I've been fortunate to walk around a lot of golf courses with both architects and with the contractors who built them.  Some of you already know this, but let me let the rest of you in on a little secret - Contractors know a lot more than you think about golf course design.  At times I've wondered who was really the architect    

[Mike_Young]

The architect is really the architect but as you state the contractor knows much more than many golfers would assume.
You will see several architects that only came ointo "their own" after hooking up with the right contractor and just "phoning in" what they wanted and trusting him to do it.  I think it fairly common with a couple today and that is why they use same contractor over and over.  Nothing wrong with a good contractor relationship that has developed where both sides know what the other wants but yes, sometimes you do see the contractor telling the architect what he wants.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
We are in agreement.  I could tell some stories that would amaze but I wouldn't do that on line.  The point of this thread is simply to state that contractors (and not just shapers) play a critical role in the quality of the golf course whether it be new construction or restoration/rennovation.  Like you said Mike, they can make an architect look good and they can also make them look bad.  The better the communication and the more respect each has for the other, the better the outcome.  Furthermore, contractor's services are not commodities and unfortunately I see them at times treated as such.  
Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark & Mike,

Could you list the projects where MacDonald & Sons have
been the contractor ?

I think that Merion and Aronomink are two of their projects, but, I'd be curious to know what others they were involved with.

Also, could you list the top ten (largest) golf course contractors ?

I know Wadsworth is big, but other then regionally, I don't know the entire scope of the field of contractors.

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
I have to run but here are a few.  You might be amazed:
Oakmont, Olympia Fields, Baltimore CC, Riviera, Shadow Creek, Shinnecock Hills, Winged Foot, Bethpage Black,... the list goes on.

Wadsworth and Landscapes are two of the biggest.
Mark

[DPL11]

Pat,

I've worked with Chip MacDonald, and his team is outstanding. They did some bunker work for us after some major flood damage. I believe they got kind of a bum rap after the Merion project, but people have to realize that they are constructing what the architect wants. I assure you that their construction methods are first rate, and a more professional company is hard to find.

Have a great holiday.

Doug

[ian]

Mark,

"Furthermore, contractor's services are not commodities and unfortunately I see them at times treated as such."

They are treated with much more respect, and given more credit for their involvement in the final product than you seem to imply. Any good architect knows who has made things work. The other end of this is a smart architect allows room for the contractor to become part of the design process. It brings new ideas and keeps them as excited as you are in developing good golf holes. This way you both come away satisfied with what you build.

I have a picture of every shaper and contacting team I have worked with. I take the time to say thank-you to each member of the team, not just the shaper or supervisor.

We know we can't make great golf without them, they are far from a commodity, often they are our close friends.

The crew at St. George's.

[Mark_Fine]

Ian,
I like your approach and I hope you are right about the credit.  It is well deserved!  Maybe a few contractors will chime in though I would guess some may find it hard to be candid on the Internet.  
Mark

[Bill Kubly]

As one of the contractors that you have listed above, I have truly enjoyed the posts above about "Contractors being commodities".  That is a term I use all the time when we try to differenciate our construction company from the rest.  

In our industry today, there are many very talented contractors.  Some are great at smaller jobs and some can handle them all.  Much of the conversation on this site is about "shapers", and we all know just how important they are.  Even most Architects will tell you that the shaper can truly make a difference and "make them look good'.  I will take this one step further as you seem to agree, and that is that it takes more than just the shapers to make the project work out right.  It takes the contractor's management team, the irrigation superintendent and designer, the greens superintendent, along with the architects to create a great product.  

Most architects do have their favorite contractors to work with and all of us contractors value those great relationships.  The architects that we love to work with are those that give some of the credit to our people.  Our shapers and superintendents are the ones that thrive on a pat on the back from time to time and the "best architects to us" are the ones that have figured out that these shapers will do almost anything for them if they are treated with respect.  

There are several architects, however, that haven't figured it out. They are the ones that change things again and again, sometimes just for the sake of changing.  It is one thing for us to absorb the costs of these changes, but the real sad part is when our shapers and superintendents will say that they never will work for that architect again, and believe me, we have several architects that we will never work for again, even if they begged.  Life is too short to be in a business that you and your people love and to be treated that way.  

Sometimes a project may take more than 12 months to complete and everyone needs to realize that these are joint efforts.  The majority of the golf course architects do realize this and our great to the contractors that they know are trying their best.  It's a great industry to be involved with.  I thank my lucky stars every day for being in this business.  

Thanks for those of you that do realize that we are not just a commodity.

Bill Kubly
Landscapes Unlimited

[Neal_Meagher]

Mr. Kubly,

Thanks for chiming in here on this topic.  We are all very lucky to have you, as one of the most experienced contractors anywhere, here to lend a real-life viewpoint to this discussion group.

I, for one, hope you feel free to comment and post as often as you can, as we can all benefit from your thoughts on a variety of subjects that are often talked about here.

[Bill Kubly]

Neal,  

I have viewed this site off and on for several months now and really enjoy the topics and the discussion.  I see that many of my industry friends are also on the site and I guess if they are not afraid to contribute, then neither should I.  I have never seen a response from a builder, so I will try to chime in whenever I feel a need.  

The one thing that you "designers" need to understand is that many of us contractors have the same Passion that you do.  We love this game, and the people involved in it.  Let's face, it is our life....

[Jeff_Brauer]

Great to have your opinion, Bill!  

As much as some here may think having in house shapers is the way to go, LUI is a company that made me realize I have no business in the construction business.  When I work with LUI, (14 out of my 45 golf courses) I feel they are an extension of my firm, without having to pay the overhead.....

I also agree that companies like LUI take care of a lot of other details without much sweat on my part.  Yesterday, I was at a remodel project where, a few years ago, I had also added nine holes.  They pointed out that the front approaches were very wet, and we determined it was because the "Brand X" contractor failed to get the greens drainage in the low spot in the front of the greens.  Ouch.  Those details ruin the golf experience for everyone, and so good building is paramount to good design.  

They also help design, too, subtly bringing the best ideas from other architects to solve specific problems on our jobs, and vice versa.  A few years ago, to prove how important a quality contractor is to the quality of a project to a young project architect, I had him draw the exact same par three hole on two projects - with one being with LUI and the other with another contractor.  The LUI hole came out  better - their shapers hid the path, swaled drainage, and tied in slopes around existing trees in a way that was superior.  In short, the little things you can't put on plan.

Almost every certified builder in the GCBAA does that, with LUI certainly leading the way.

BTW, Bill, thanks for the call last week, but the office was closed!  We'll talk about that lake this week!

[JWL]

Bill

Thank you for for posting what should be obvious to all of us in the business.   I am full agreement with all that Neal and Jeff have posted so I will not elaborate any further.
But, as this new year unvails, let me say the I, for one, do sincerely appreciate ALL the men and their efforts that I have worked with at LUI.   They have certainly enhanced my finished product and made my job easier than many other contractors.  
I look forward to working again with LUI in 2004 and beyond.
Your company's passion for excellence is shared.
Jim Lipe

[ChipRoyce]

Another company that comes to mind is Shapemasters (www.shapemasters.com). They've done a lot of work in the carolinas amongst other areas (think they had part of the latest ANGC work as well as Old Chatham, PB Dye, Gauntlet, Landfall, Doonbeg(?), Ocean Course @ Kiawah) and seem to very well regarded.

[Forrest Richardson]

Ian,

You really need a baseball (cricket) cap if you're going to hang with shapers and have your photo taken!

(Maybe Bill can you send you something appropriate...perhaps something in blue to match your jacket!)

[Ingmar_Bergman]

   People ask what are my intentions with my films - my aims. It is a difficult and dangerous question, and I usually give an evasive answer: I try to tell the truth about the human condition, the truth as I see it. This answer seems to satisfy everyone, but it is not quite correct. I prefer to describe what I would like my aim to be.

   There is an old story of how the cathedral of Chartres was struck by lightning and burned to the ground. Then thousands of people came from all points of the compass, like a giant procession of ants, and together they began to rebuild the cathedral on its old site.

   They worked until the building was completed - master builders, artists, labourers, clowns, noblemen, priests, burghers. But they all remained anonymous, and no one knows to this day who built the cathedral of Chartres.

   Regardless of my own beliefs and my own doubts, which are unimportant in this connection, it is my opinion that art lost its basic creative drive the moment it was separated from worship. It severed an umbilical cord and now lives its own sterile life, generating and degenerating itself. In former days the artist remained unknown and his work was to the glory of God. He lived and died without being more or less important than other artisans; 'eternal values,' 'immortality' and 'masterpiece' were terms not applicable in his case. The ability to create was a gift. In such a world flourished invulnerable assurance and natural humility.

   Today the individual has become the highest form and the greatest bane of artistic creation. The smallest wound or pain of the ego is examined under a microscope as if it were of eternal importance. The artist considers his isolation, his subjectivity, his individualism almost holy. Thus we finally gather in one large pen, where we stand and bleat about our loneliness without listening to each other and without realising that we are smothering each other to death. The individualists stare into each other's eyes and yet deny the existence of each other. We walk in' circles, so limited by our own anxieties that we can no longer distinguish between true and false, between the ganster's whim and the purest ideal.

          Thus if I am asked what I would like the general purpose of my films to be, I would reply that I want to be one of the artists in the cathedral on the great plain. I want to make a dragon's head, an angel, a devil - or perhaps a saint - out of stone. It does not matter which; it is the sense of satisfaction that counts.

   Regardless of whether I believe or not, whether I am a Christian or not, I would play my part in the collective building of the cathedral.

[ginger1]

  I have had the experience from both sides of the business, as a designer and contractor. I can tell you that there are many designers out there who impresss owners with detailed drawings with grades galore and conceptual sketches that are really impressive. The fun starts when all the hand waving and references to minimalism and ambiance stop and the shaper has to take a flat blade and create natural forms using a flat piece of paper as a guide. Many of the field sketches are useless because the architects rarely can illustrate. I know they can draw plans, but what is needed is more sketches that show texture and dimension. This is the point where many architects say " move some dirt and have me look at it". They come back and tweak it and then the process is completed.
  This is how the process works, but is does work. The architect assumes all the liability and client happy talk and then the creative process begins.  The contractor has to sit back and keep quiet while the fog of "golf ego syndrone"
overtakes the site, than they send everybody up to the clubhouse and the work begins.  Contractors cannot be ego driven.
  The best architects are the ones who cut through the process and deliver concise information on paper and in person, than disappear. I find that a site visit over 1 hour long is too much for anybody to absorb.

[A_Clay_Man]

Can some of you comment on the use of two different  contractors for a 36 hole facility, ala ,World Woods?

Was the fear of using the same construction team realistic? Would there tend to be a similar look if the same team was used?

Or,

Is it the architect who's design shines through to identify his/her particular style? Can one archie really make two totally different style courses sitting right next to each other?

[Brian Phillips]

Ginger1,

I have worked on both sides of the fence the same as you and slightly disagree with you about drawings.  I like having accurate 20cm or 10cm green drawings.  We used set out everything shape it rough and if it looked good we would then shape it as good as we could get ready for the architect visit.

I was lucky in that the architects that I worked with were on site about once a week or min every 2 weeks.  

I agree that the constructor does have a lot to do with how the course is going to look but it is still the Architect that should be signing off on all design work.  I worked in construction for about 8 years (some of it really Heavy Engineering) so when I started the golf course construction division I was shocked at how little drawings are delivered sometimes.  What shocked me the most was that some architects didn't even work out the quantities and we had to do it.  I have heard that is pretty normal in America...no?

That is one thing I totally disagree with. It shouldn't be the constructors job to guestimate how much an architect wants to move..it should be the architects job.  The other thing that bugged me about no quantities is that all the companies delivering bids had different quantities....so how the hell does a client compare them?

My attitude now is that I can't be on site all day and everyday so i will produce quality drawings together with landscape sketches combined with visits at least once a week during construction.  The thing that takes up the most time that many on here forget is the site meetings...they seem to take forever....

Brian

[ed_getka]

Bill,
   Thanks for posting. It is always interesting to hear an insider's viewpoint. For those architects you wouldn't want to work for again "even if they begged", what was it that happened that made you feel that way. Obviously, don't name names, but was it personal interactions or someone who didn't really know what they were doing and continually changing their mind until they stumbled onto what they wanted. In short, what architect qualities drive contractors crazy to the point you wouldn't want to work with them. Happy New Year.

[Bill Kubly]

Ed,
I may get into trouble here, but the main reason for the "even if they begged" comment really has little to do with money.  It has much more to do with demoralization of my shapers and supervisors.  You must remember that in this business, the schedules are always too short (ALWAYS),  and our people are working 6-7 days per week to meet those unreasonable schedules from day one.  This is not the fault of the architects, but the system.  

My people take real pride in their work and we do not mind changes, in fact, I agree that this is what can ultimately allow the architect to end up with the best result, and that is what we want too.  

We work with many architects that draw great plans and many that we call arm-wavers, or combinations there-of.  Both of these types of designers can create great golf courses and both types need tweaking in the field. We enjoy that phase of the job, because it involves our artists on their bulldozers.  As I said earlier, if handled properly, with respect, my shapers and job managers will do almost anything to please the architects as they are our bread and butter.  We do aim to please. But every once in a while, they can cross the line and when I see one of our shapers almost in tears because of the continued changes, it hurts me too.  I have almost lost carreer shapers to these types of situations and that is where we draw the line.  

One of our biggest complaints is when the architect puts a "rookie designer" on our site, basically for us to train.  They are not even allowed to make a final decision, but they tell us what "they" what us to shape.  When the principal does return to the site, he may not like the work (not our fault) and we need to redo what was done.  It is not only the cost here, but the time to redo the work, as well as upsetting our people.

My other bone of contention is architects that do not stand up for the contractor when they know the contractor is right.  I have total respect for those architects who have the balls to stand up to the owner or engineer when they think they are being unfair to us.  This can happen more than you think, and it is the bond that creates those special relationships in this business.

In most cases, we have wonderful relationships with the architects, but as in other businesses, some things can be very frustrating.  The key is that we really enjoy what we do and as Yogi Berra would say, although it is my famous quote, "When it isn't fun anymore, it just isn't fun anymore".

Bill Kubly

[Brian Phillips]

Bill,

I have only met you once at Sand Hills at the Archipalooza and I liked your talk that day as well as what you are saying today.

I don't think people realise how much pressure a contractor is under when it comes to time on a project and the lack of understanding a client is when it a rainy season. On one job we wer getting pressuerised to go out and seed fairways and I refused...the client had a tantrum...so I asked him were he would like us to seed...he said he wanted the fourth fairway seeded....I sent the tractor out exactly where he wanted....five minutes later it was stuck...(with grass tires)....the client never uttered a word for about a month...


Another time we were waiting for the wind to drop so we could dropseed A4 creeping bent on the greens...this went on for a couple of days....again the client pipes up, giving us a rollicking....so again I do what he says but get it in writing that he is responisble for what it will look like in 6 weeks time.

It was the worst green...

The contractor is the piggy in the middle....trying to please everybody...

The hardest job I had was trying to find the correct balance of men on site...too little in dry weather and you are losing money and time as well as getting bad looks from the client...too many and it starts to rain and then you really do start losing money...

Brian

[ed_getka]

Bill and Brian,
  Thanks for the responses. Since there is timeline pressure throughout each project, how do you handle scheduling your people? Since they are working 6-7 days/week during the project, do they get a few weeks off between projects? If your employees have the ability to go to projects back to back, do you find they get burned out?

[Mark_Fine]

Thanks everyone for chiming in here.  This has been a good exchange and on a topic I can't recall having on this website (about the role of contractors).  One other thing I will add, it seems to me there are architects who swear by doing drawings and others who think they are a waste of time and money.  As Bill says, both can turn out good golf courses.  The common denominator on the courses that turn out well, however, is a good contractor and good communication between all parties.  

[Neal_Meagher]

Brian Phillips,

While I have no doubt that you have heard of some architects not working out quantities, which could range from overall c.y. of material to be moved to sand, gravel, drain pipe and the like, I do not think it is the norm in the States.

I began my career working for a real stickler for such details and most of the architects I know also realize the benefit to the client, and ultimately the designer, of knowing as much about the quantities as possible for cost control.  This is especially true on public works type projects where every contractor MUST bid apples to apples.

Of course, there are some projects and owners who prefer a generalized idea of construction budget and go on a cost plus basis.  Perhaps Mr. Kubly or Jeff Brauer can talk a bit more about their experiences with those differences and the effects they have on certain golf courses and their relative quality.

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