Has Anyone Played Any Courses By Karl Litton?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Please, if you could, give me an assessment of his courses you have played. It would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I might as well go ahead, because I don't thnk anyone is going to answer this.

Yesterday, I had the honor of accompanying Mike Golden To the Pacific Golf Club in San Clemente, California, and seeing more or less all we needed to see of its 27 holes.

For those of you that don't know of Pacifc Golf Club, it was built around 1987 on some of the most seriously bad golf land imaginable. We aren't talking about Tijera Rejada bad land, we're talking some serious stuff which isn't fit for any good golf palate. And you know what? Given the severity of the land and wha the architect had to work with, he had a FEW really fun holes to play. How many is a few, I'm still trying to count on one hand.

PGC describes itself as a "Links-style" course, which is customary with its lead designer--Mr. Gary Player. When your out there, you can literally here the wind screaming in South African-dialect, "God himself meant this great, great land to be a really great golf course," and frankly, we all know how full of shit Gary Player really is. Still, the real designer, Karl Litten had some holes out there that are actually fun to play with small tiny greens, loaded with all sorts of trouble around them. The course is growing at this moment in dormant bermuda, and it was perfect in its brown, gold and green colors. The stuff we love so much on real links courses. The fairways were in great shape, and they had these really small greens runing about 12, and it was totaly unfair, yet excillirating because some of the holes did in fact lay out like links-like holes with their quirky nature.

Did I like the course? No, absollutely not, it's everything I hate about a golf course on such a severe site, but I'm actually tempted to go back and play it, or just look at it again.

The architect for Player, Karl Litton did a decent job given who was signing the checks and what the site actually was. But, given the severity, you would have thought it would have figured out how to route at least a somewhat decent 18 holes, and throw out the ideas of having another extra nine.

To me it reminded me of playing Lundin Golf Club's 10th, 11th, & 12th holes in a post-steroidial state. We are talking par 5's of 430 yards with no chance of reaching the green in two, even if you are Matt Ward or Tom Brown, and 465 yard par 4's almost reachable with a three iron!


The 213 yard 9th with its deadly pin placement. (I have hi-lighted in red the break on Mike Golden's putt and where it ended-up. It was an all-gravity putt, if you get my meaning. This green was the biggest we saw on the course.


The 7th, which is a fun downhill 339 yard par four.

[ForkaB]

Tommy

I played PGC several times with a good friend who was a member in the late 80's/early 90's, including two Men's Invitationals.  I thought it to be a reasonably good golf course built on an impossible piece of land, with more than a few very interesting holes.  Pretty much in line with your contemporary assessment, and pretty much what I said about the course on this site a few years back on one of the "Let's bash Gary Player as a designer" threads.  From the pictures it seems that they've tarted the place up at bit.  When I played there, off of the fairway was scrub and dirt rattlesnake country.

Thanks for the memories.

[Andrew Summerell]

Tommy,

I've played Capricorn International, a Karl Litten course in Queensland Australia. The land is typical of a tropical setting. There is not an over amount of movement in the topography of each hole. There is some wetlands that are used well, & he has left reasonable width playing corridores for each hole.

From the back tees, it measures about 7200 yards, opening with a 600 yard par 5, followed by a 450 yard par 4.

The humidity is high in this area & the course plays relatively soft & has been designed to accomodate an aerial game. The bunkering is non descript, but there are plenty of them, although there is a bail out area on the most difficult holes.

It is very much in the resort style of architecture. Not a bad course, but nothing special.

[Ramon T. Hernandez]

Aim at the " right tower of the erector set" and draw it ever so slightly.

That place looks like the sister course to Malibu CC. Technicolor-Yawn.

CB, seth, and steamshovel could have made that land look like, uh, um, Talking Stick-North  

[DPL11]

Tommy,

Karl Litten also designed Cape May National GC, just outside the town of Cape May, in southern New Jersey. A golf course built around 1990 which was also claimed a links experience. A few interesting holes, and like Andrew posted, pretty good use of true wetlands. Very flat terrain like most of south Jersey, and many artificial mounds everywhere that don't tie into the surrounds very well.

Defiantely not worth a flight from California.

Doug

[Jonathan Davison]

Karl Litton was also responsible for the Emirates and The Creek in Dubai, again I do not think they add anything in terms of architectural merit, but the pro's seem to enjoy them. I have also played The Oaks in Orlando another Litton design, maybe we can describe his courses as typical resort style, nothing blows you away.

[SPDB]

That second photo reminds me of the Cape Hole at Mid Ocean.

[Mike_Golden]

Nice photos, Tommy,  it's really too bad the property has so much elevation change and they stuck in 27 holes-there was probably a pretty good 18 hole course there and actually some nice features in the design (except for that downhill putt on the 9th hole of the 'Royal Lytham' nine-what Tommy didn't tell you is that we tried that putt about 20 times and never got it closer than 8 feet, even hitting it into the fringe to stop it).

By the way, has anyone ever played back to back par 5's, one being 432 yards and other 625 yards and wound up closer to the green in 2 on the 625 yard hole?  I did on Saturday and didn't hit a bad shot on either hole.

[ForkaB]

Pasadera has a 430 yd uphill par 5 that I couldn't reach, and then a 530 yard par 4 that was driver 5-iron.  While they aren't back to back, they are esentially parallel

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thanks for all of the answers guys, and thanks Mike for pointing out my gauffaw for not elaborating on the severity of the speed of the greens.

All in all, I didn't HATE this course as much as I thought I would. I came away with somerpetty good  impressions of an architect that did the best he could on that horrible piece of land, knowing 18 holes would have been much better than 27.

I sincerely hope that this club does make it through their bad times.

[JWL]

Pasadera has a 430 yd uphill par 5 that I couldn't reach, and then a 530 yard par 4 that was driver 5-iron.  While they aren't back to back, they are esentially parallel

Rich
I assume you are referring to holes 12 and 15.  If you played the back tees on each of those holes, you played a distance of 508 on 12 and 505 on 15.  You are correct that they play virtually parallel with 12 approximately 108 feet uphill and 15 about 100 feet downhill.  If you play the tee across the road on 15 (the recommended back tee) then the hole is 485 and does play pretty short to the punchbowl green draining away from play.  12 is also a punchbowl green draining from back right to front left guarded by two spectacle greenside bunkers.

[Thomas_Brown]

Wow - those pics are from a different world.
I played it in some junior golf tournaments a couple of years after it first opened in the 1980's.  I can't believe how it's grown in.  It was all brown and scrub brush when I was there.

I'm glad the course is getting better reviews.
But, I will leave you w/ this thought:

Contrast site selection between Doak and Player.
Seems like Doak strikes gold w/ every design(ok-at least silver).  Player always seems to build on the unusable land.
I've long meant to ask Doak his selection criteria.
Perhaps at Painswick it will come up.
A golf architect's credibility seems to be dependent on several factors.  My guess is Doak must be turning down lots of jobs.

Tom

[ForkaB]

Jim

Thanks for the clarifications re: Pasadera.  My recollection is that we played some tips some forward tees.  Pretty sure 12 was played forward, which made the 2nd shot pretty daunting into the fortress/fall away green.  Please don't tell me that the pros regularly reach that green in 2 from the back tees.....

PS--I liked both holes, and they are necesary if one is determined to route the course to include the cliff(s)top #14.  I'm sure my drive on 15 had about 15 seconds of hang time.  It was cool.

[Craig_Rokke]

Hey Tommy:

I had never heard of Litten, until your post. Coincidentally, my "Philadelphia Golfer" arrived today, and they've featured
a course in south Jersey called Wild Oaks CC, by him.
The course has been open since 1999.

The commentary is favorable, though this golf publication is not one to be too critical. There are some photos of tree-lined
fairways, but not much detail beyond that. The bunker lips
are slightly pushed up. The bunkers are ovalish in shape, appearing to frame the holes. And, of course, the obligatory fountain adorns the pond hole. (Why are these fountains are so prevalent?)

As I mentioned, the review is positive. The writer indicates that the course appears intimidating but plays a bit easier at its 6532 yards. There is at least one very short par 4. Litten employed a double green, and the course also features
a couple of grass bunkers

It can't be more than an hour from me so maybe I'll have to check it out sometime.