[Jeff Goldman]

I think WS outstanding, and more playable for the average golfer than the River Course, but I recall Tom Doak posting 2 specific criticisms of the design:  (1)  The fact that the shaping, while good, ended at the edge of the fairway (unlike Arcadia, where he stated the shaping was superior, and (2) he stated that he "hated" the catch basins, in a thread on drainage a while ago.  Any comments?  I haven't been there since his comments, but next time I'm going to look for myself.

ps.  Apparently, the fescue problems have been cleared up.

Jeff Goldman

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

I didn't ask you to list magazine ratings -- I asked YOU to specify in some sort of d-e-t-a-i-l how Shadow Creek is so far ahead of Wolf Creek. I'm interested in YOUR specific rationale. Please point out specific i-n-s-t-a-n-c-e-s, if you can, where the holes at Shadow Creek are the superior lot.

Puhleeeeeeeze, don't confuse the engineering aspects of Shadow Creek and all the hype and PR it generated at the outset. That's been easily matched and IMHO exceeded by Wolf Creek. You have a rollarcoaster ride of wild and indeed unique holes at Wolf Creek that Shadow Creek can't match.

Let me also mention the notion that TKC's back nine is sooooo far behind it's front nine is really a big time stretch. There are plenty of solid holes on that side. You have the 12th, 13th and 15th, to name just three. The greens also are artfully created and when you combine the entire experience you have a very exciting modern design. I will tell you this -- if the front nine at TKC were replicated to the high level you see for the first nine holes the course would e-a-s-i-l-y be among the top 50 courses in the USA. I would still put it among my best 75 courses because it contains so much that is indeed missing from so many of the new courses coming onto the scene.

Let me also mention that the Straits Course is no doubt demanding in a number of spots -- but what about the over-the-top creation Pete and company provided. Arcadia Bluffs fits the land better and the general flow of the holes seems to work in unison in a much better fashion.

I don't know if you have played The Golf Club in the greater Columbus, OH area but if you are serious put the Straits in the same company of Pac Dunes then you must believe the Straits to be in the same rarified air as TGC. Say it ain't so.

The Straits m-a-y make my personal top 100 but it's straining to do so nearer the end. When you look at the totality of what Pete has designed over the years of a stellar career I can't imagine someone saying it behooves one to play the Straits to r-e-a-l-l-y get the flavor of what made Pate Dye so unique and great.

[GeoffreyC]

Paul

No one is ganing up on anyone.  I've spent lots of typing time on documenting the architectural features of KC.  Check the archives back to last May. . I've also in the very brief summary here in this thread said more about individual holes at KC then you have. Specific comments about TOC are also in the archives from shortly after the GW outing.

If you want us to take your views seriously then document your statements with some details that refer to playability and architecture. Tell me what about anything you said regarding WS would make me want to spend any of my limited time and $$ to visit WS vs. another resort?  Anything akin to the kind of commentary in Ran's reviews would do. He reviews courses that he thinks highly of and he tells us why.

[Paul Richards]

Matt and Geoff:

I will make it a point to pull out my 'notes' from my visits to Wolf Creek, Shadow Creek and to Kingsley.  That way we can all learn from the 'infinite wisdom' which is contained in my musings after my visits!

 

[NAF]

I may be the only one who has played WS, TKC, Kingsbarns, The Irish Course etc here.  Not that the fact qualifies me to make an opinion but I will anyway..

I'm always amazed of criticism of TKC.  Most of it revolves around whether the land was good for golf or not.  I asked Mike DeVries this last week and he said it was tough land to build on but stopped short of saying it was not good land.  After all, he routed the front 9 over this tough land and everybody raves about it.  But what's not to like about the back... I agree 10 and 11 are the two most pedestrian holes on the course but lets look at the rest..

12-cradled in a valley and fits the landscape naturally.
13-one of the best modern greens ever built with a natural bowl in the rear 2/3rds.
15-a "foxy" type hole with one of the smallest plateau greens you will ever see
16- a fun redannish hole back over the same bunkers you see on the left of 15
17- a cool par 5 if you can carry the ridge
18- a fine finisher back into the dunescape.

I agree the back isnt the equal of the front but the same can be said for TKC's neighbor Crystal Downs.

As per WS, I played it 3 years ago and that was before I played about 75 rounds in the UK.  With the benefit of hindsight I think the course is just way too over the top with the mounding and shaping.  Do I enjoy it, sure I do but I think the course was almost designed with the par 3s as the most memorable traits.  I enjoyed some of the large par 4s but the course just seemed over bunkered to my taste.

I've seen Kingsbarns as well and am not a fan.  I'd put it on par with WS though.  The shaping at Kingsbarns is more subtle than what I saw at WS and though manicured and full of containment mounding in spots there isnt the over bunkered feeling I felt in Wisconsin.

I think Shivas has it right though==go play the River course and by all means skip the Irish Course.

[Matt_Ward]

The whole issue with those who are big proponents of the Straits Course is to place it in the context of other Pete Dye designed gems.

I would be a brutally cold day in hell before the Straits would even be remotely linked to such grand dames as The Golf Club, Teeth of the Dog, etc, etc. I don't doubt the Straits has a number of interesting holes that run near the Lake but the totality of the course is really about man's hand going waaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond what the preexisting site contained.

It is clearly overshaped IMHO and beyond the "do-or-die" par-3 holes you find there it really can't compare to a neighboring course on the other side of Lake Michigan -- Arcadia Bluffs in terms of overall routing and diversity of holes.

I also concur with Noel's comments on The Kingsley Club. The layout is truly inspired and minus two holes which Noel indicated (the 10th and 11th) you have a layout that provides high octane golf and more importantly -- fun for all types of players. For someone to rate the Straits Course ahead of TKC is really pushing it a bit much IMHO.

[Paul Richards]

Noel:

When I read comments like this one, I must say, I have a nice chuckle:

>I agree the back isnt the equal of the front but the same can be said for TKC's neighbor Crystal Downs

That's sorta like saying, "Rosanne and Nicolle Kidman both have boobs."  Please don't insult Nicolle or Crystal Downs with silly statements like that!

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

Let's get one thing straight here - I never said that Shadow Creek is great - I merely pointed out that it has certainly gotten plenty of hype and, mind you, was once ranked in the top 10 in the country by Golf Digest!  So I don't need to defend it in the least - it is NOT in my top 3 modern courses - which are:

Whistling Straits
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Dunes

and, not necessarily in that order!

[Paul Richards]

Notes after playing Shadow Creek:

Wish I had played here before Trump International, I would have been even less impressed with Trump!

Amazing what an unlimited budget can do - take a dead-flat desert property and turned it into an evergreen oasis!

Isn't worth paying $500 to play - (of course, no course probably really is, is it?)

Both 5 par's on front nine dog-leg left - feel as if they are nearly the same hole.

Nearly the same tee shots needed on the two back-nine, dog-leg right holes, #16 and #18.


#5, three par, had a really neat feel - as if it is a tabletop green above the sea of evergreens.

#18 was a spectacular double-risk/reward five par.


** a selection of the observations I made that day

[Tuco Ramirez]

Hey Paul or should I call you amigo

There are two types of people in this world:

Those who are full of it and those who arent

Putting Pac Dunes in the company of Whistling Straights and Bandon Dunes is much worse that your comparison to NAF.. I'm hoping you had a little too much whiskey when you said that statement.

[GeoffreyC]

Paul

viva la differance- I have Bandon Dunes down in the second 50 of top modern courses. FYI- Below in a couple of posts are archived posts of my thoughts on TKC (minus photos that were there).

August 13, 2003- quote from Ran Morrissett
"Meanwhile, perhaps a rater or two might read the In My Opinion and My Home Course sections or the course profiles on Rustic Canyon and Holston Hills and The Kingsley Club and Eastward Ho! and Lawsonia and Cuscowilla and Lookout Mountain and Lost Dunes and Royal Worlington & Newmarket and Harrison Hills and Huntingdon Valley and Fenway and West Sussex and Beverly and etc. etc. and be motivated to play them and start a thread: discussion of specifics is how we truly learn, unless you're a stubborn molecular biologist with initials GC"  



Ran

I thought what MikeC, Noel, Matt and I all were doing was giving Mike Devries the highest compliment possible. He did an absolutely stunning job to make the Kingsley Club such a great success. I thought that was obvious.

We played in the morning with Mike and he was a great guide.  When he showed us what the property looked like before building as we drove into the course it was obvious why he is the architect and we are the amateur architecture scholars. He also told us that the original location of the 13th green was beyond the present one but clearing the land uncovered the natural and unique present green. His talent recognized that as did his involvement at the site.

However, to equate the site of the Kingsley Club with Inniscrone's site is absurd and frankkly an insult to Gil Hanse who really maximized that piece of land and in addition had environmental issues never seen at KC.  Inniscrone as good as it is never had a chance of reaching the same level as KC.

I don't see the potential disaster of the 7th hole  

 

The tee shot on #6 is maybe my favorite on the course.  It reminded me a bit of Prairie Dunes or even a mirror image of #9 at Bethpage.  Then the approach to the green uses the other side of the ridge seen in right side of the photo above.  That ridge and the one beyond give interest to the tee shot on #7 (3 shotter) and 2nd while the green sits up on the hillside.

 

I thought Mike did a great job with it and the whole course. Do you think KC looks natural because Mike moved mountains like Rayor did at Yale? Give me a break.  This was a minimalist effort and Mike's great eye for detail and on site attention recognized the features in the land.  Those bowls in the 4th fairway like the 16th at NGLA weren't constructed they were identified and utilized ideally.

Ran- I don't get your point here.

August 12, 2003
After recently opening for play Hidden Creek made a spectacular leap to #72 in GOLF's USA rankings, and a position in the WORLD Top 100 list fighting past some very tough company. Meanwhile The Kinsley Club gets left off of both lists. Thus, there must  be a fair difference of opinion regarding the quality of the two courses. Can someone help explain Hidden Creek’s attributes over Kinsley Club? Or perhaps it is Kingsley’s weaknesses that I don't appreciate?

Kingsley Club is built on sandy soil with great undulations and movement in the property reminiscent of Yale, NGLA and even Myopia Hunt in places.  Hidden Creek is also built on sandy soil but it offers little elevation changes uneven lies and stances and the ball will not bounce and react wildly as it can at Kingsley Club.  Surely then the hazards that must come into play in reaction to a ball along the ground at Hidden Creek must exert consequences and put fear into the golfer if it is to be able to compete with courses built on superior landforms. Case in point is the simple 4th at KC with a blind drive over a hillside to a fairway that works exactly like the punchbowl 16th at NGLA!  Deep bouwls left and right collect balls not hit to a very small region of the right center of the fairway. The approach to the largest green on the course requires depth perception and precision made difficult if you are in one of those bowls. This kind of landform is hard to beat.  VERDICT- Kingsley Club 1 UP

Here's what I glean in comparing the two:

One shotters:  Kingsley Club has the world class short #2 (Ran’s quote-“Perhaps the finest short one-shotter built since World War II” and the bold punchbowl 220 yard 5th  that carry the day over any of the one shotters at Hidden Creek. VERDICT:  Kingsley Club 2 UP

Shorter two shotters:  The wild 13th at the Kingsley Club is a unique golf hole.  It presents options off the tee and a crazy greensite with the only green I know of with more elevation change then the 9th at Yale!  The 8th at Hidden Creek is a nice hole but it is no match for the 13th at KC. VERDICT: Kingsley Club  3 up

Longer two shotters:  No single long par 4 at Hidden Creek can match the great 15th at Kingsley.  It’s the smallest green on the course at the end of the longest par 4.  In addition, it is devilishly perched on a built up hillside where the player can easily putt off the green or chip from side to side given some pin locations.  Still, Hidden Creek has a fine set of long 4’s that’s a testament to its great variety.  The fine 10th, excellent 12th and 16th make for a strong back nine.  Each of these holes represents a different challenge. VERDICT: tie

Three shotters:  The best of the bunch is probably the 3rd at Hidden Creek.  It’s a superior par 5 with one of the few REALLY challenging hazards on the course and a nice green complex.  Still, I found the 9th (especially) and 17th to be fairly weak.  The opening hole at Kingsley sets the stage for the rest of the front 9 with its scale and bold features.  The choice to challenge the central hazard offers a REAL difference for the next shot. The fine 7th offers risk reward again made extremely interesting due to the topography and placement of the drive for the best view of the next shot.  VERDICT: Kingsley Club 4 UP


Intangibles:  Hidden Creek is a fairly unique course given its heathland makeup.  It looks and plays very well in this vein provided that the firm and fast conditions are maintained as I think they will.  Kingsley is a really bold course where the front 9 is routed over ideal land for a golf course and the back 9 is well paced through more tree covered land and then back out for the 18th green complex. Both are golf clubs in the best sense of the word without distractions from housing, pools and tennis courts. VERDICT: Tie


Thus, if Hidden Creek makes the world Top 100 list and #72 in the USA, seems to me Kingslley Club should be world top 100 as well. What am I missing?

Cheers  

May 12th 2003
Mike-

Thanks for reminding me about the 3 pars at Kingsley.  As a group and individually, I can think of no other holes that resemble them.  

The 5th at about 215 yards plays into a bowl protected by a hill on the right and framed by a ridge on the left.  You can play directly at the green but a wise choice would be to bank it off the left allowing a ball to collect into the punchbowl.  

The 9th can be played from two different directions. From the right tee you play across a valley to a tabletop green protected by a deep bunker on the front left and the green has a backstop hillside directly behind but curves sharply to the left.  From the left tee, the hole plays as a reverse redan where the hillside can be used to bank the ball onto the green.  However, the tee shot needs proper distance control or banking the ball off the hill results in the green kicking the ball off the green and behind the bunker leaving a frightening lob to right rear pin locations (a front pin from the other tee). How cool is that?

On the back nine, the 16th plays like a redan with bold fall offs to the left to catch shots struck less then solidly. Its not a direct copy however and it has unique features dictated by the landform. The 11th is perhaps the most straightforward 3 par at Kingsley.  It could remind you of other holes but it has a challenging greensite with falloffs especially to the right side that require great thought with your short game.

You will not soon forget the par 3's at the Kingley Club nor will you mistake them for any other course you have played.

[GeoffreyC]

Paul- one more- your turn- perhaps you could do a comparison of WS with TOC and/or WS with TKC as I did with TKC and Hidden Creek and Ran and others have done many times with many courses.  Thanks.

May 12th 2003
Mike

Where do you get the energy to get home and type that insightful post on little rest and just having arrived home? I thought you had ohter plans  

First, I too must say that the Kingsley Club is one of the great modern courses!  To ignore its unique features, great variety and bold use of the land as it existed takes a lobotomized player with blinders on. In addition to Mike's description, holes like the short 13th are downright unforgettable. Mike Devries, our kind host, described how the greensite was originally to be in another location but upon clearing the land, it was impossible to ignore the feature in the land at the current site.  I've never really played a green with putts over such elevation changes as the 9th at Yale (biarritz) but this green has them and its MUCH more complex to figure out its breaks and how hard to hit the putt. The bold 15th at Kingsley is the longest playing par 4, it has no bunkers, yet it had the smallest green on the course (3800 sq ft I believe). The front plays like a table top with slopes running down each side.  Great stuff.

[NAF]

Paul,

What we have hear is a conflict of visions. For the life of me I can't even mention Pac Dunes in the same sentance as Whistling Straights or Bandon Dunes.  When I play Pac Dunes I feel transported to golf in the British Isles.  When I play the other 2 I feel I am playing an imitation.  It would be like L.A. Confidential the movie as in Kim Basinger playing the part of the prostitute who looks like the movie star for the client to sleep with vs. the real deal.  I dont know how much golf you've played in the U.K. but I don't feel WS or BD is the real deal.  Good golf yes but not inspirational by any means.

Second of all Dr. Childs has written a lot of what I would but I think the back 9 of Crystal Downs keeps it from being a 10 on Doak's scale despite him giving it that grade.  After playing the loop from #5-9, you can' be SERIOUS (thank you John McEnroe) in saying the back doesnt let down a notch.  The bunkering is less Mackenzie based for one as he wasnt there for it and the property around the 16th hole is quite dull in my estimation.  #17 is a quirky hole and I love quirk but I find it too over the top even for my taste.  The back 9 is simply more prosaic than the front.

I was with 3 GCA members who played 36 at both CD and TKC.  We did a Ran type comparison of CD vs. TKC and the results were very close for all said.

I love CD, don't get me wrong, I give it a 9 on the Golfweek scale but don't insult me by saying my comparison was trite.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Paul,
I'm not going to do any slamming, just a few of my comparatives.

Shadow Creek:

Wish I had played here before Trump International, I would have been even less impressed with Trump! Haven't played Trump.

Amazing what an unlimited budget can do - take a dead-flat desert property and turned it into an evergreen oasis! I too was amazed at the movement of land. I have seen similar amounts moved right near my house at Disneyland, and it created far more memorability. I can remember most every twist & turn of Splash Mountain, Thunder Mountain, & the People Mover, and they have more fun and interest then Shadow Creek does as a golf course.

Isn't worth paying $500 to play - (of course, no course probably really is, is it?) I couldn't agree more! But Shadow Creek as an experience--the limo ride with good friends; the great staff, seeing the head professional do his job--all impressive and worthy of note. It was a great experience. anyone that would want to do it more then once or twice would be a child of excess.

Both 5 par's on front nine dog-leg left - feel as if they are nearly the same hole.I'm not sure I agree or disagree with this statement, because the two holes didn't seem that similar to me. Also, Fazio holes dont' relly neccesarily dogleg, they sort of bend left or right. There just isn't much feature or strategic interest provided when they do this slight bend. At least not for me.

The 4th provides a somewhat challenging tee shot with the water coming into play along with some saving sand hazards that actually prevent a wayward shot from being lost in the watery mass of Shadow Creek mystical pond. Is this GREAT golf architecture or what? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. (No emoticon above  that denotes sleeping )

Personally, I don't think so, and not just because one of those sand hazards saved my ball from going in when I fully deserved a lost ball. The rest of the hole is a sort of "Cape" , and the green's setting, a soothing and calming picture, tucked-in almost 90 degrees perpendicular from the approaching fairway. Is it really a dog leg? Yes, I guess so, but to me its the fourth hole in a row that is pretty underwhelming for a golf course thats rated in the Top 10 of Golfweek's America's Best Modern.

Meanwhile the 7th I only remember as a straight-away bombing par 5. I don't remember any doglegs on that one at all.

Nearly the same tee shots needed on the two back-nine, dog-leg right holes, #16 and #18. An understatement. I felt that most every tee shot on the front and back I had seen at least two, three or four times during the round. I think they should offer gold-plated air sickness bags by Gucci for good measure.

#5, three par, had a really neat feel - as if it is a tabletop green above the sea of evergreens. Paul, Have you played Pine Valley #5? I think this is the best hole on the course because it captures the feel, but plays nothing like it. The green is the best one on the course. Is it World Class? No, it isn't, but it's a World Class Feeling, and that's what the people that pay to play there are looking for.

#18 was a spectacular double-risk/reward five par. I agree. It's a good finishing hole with the goal of capturing the feeling of tee shot of #12 at Augusta National when playing the third shot on to the green. For a stronger player they will disagree if they are playing this three-shotter in two, because they don't get that feeling from 220 yards out in the fairway as someone that has 150/- in. Again, this is my take. I also think that as far as finishing holes, Fazio was much more impressive and dramatic at Pelican Hill or Shady Canyon.

[Paul Richards]

Geoff:

It may just be a matter of personal preference, but i would score the back nine WS 9, TKC 0.  So even if the front side was TKC 9, WS 0, which it isn't, then TKC cannot win the match.

Noel:

>For the life of me I can't even mention Pac Dunes in the same sentance as Whistling Straights or Bandon Dunes.  When I play Pac Dunes I feel transported to golf in the British Isles.  When I play the other 2 I feel I am playing an imitation.

When I visited Bandon, I, too, expected this to be my feeling, going in.  After 36 at both courses, I changed my tune and, in all honesty, couldn't decide WHICH of the two I liked more!  It's kind of like saying you'd rather have $1,000,0001 than $1,000,000 - sort of a moot point, eh?

WS is in that same category.  As far as feeling like I'm in Scotland or Ireland, I get the same feeling from all 3.  As I mentioned earlier, I loved playing at Kingsbarns - I certainly felt like I was in Scotland that day! - and, yet, that course is just as manufactured as WS or Bandon.  


Tuco:

>Putting Pac Dunes in the company of Whistling Straights and Bandon Dunes is much worse that your comparison to NAF.. I'm hoping you had a little too much whiskey when you said that statement.


Then pass me the Bushmills!!!



Tommy:

> Haven't played Trump


For comic relief, you need to make that trip!


>I too was amazed at the movement of land. I have seen similar amounts moved right near my house at Disneyland, and it created far more memorability. I can remember most every twist & turn of Splash Mountain, Thunder Mountain, & the People Mover, and they have more fun and interest then Shadow Creek does as a golf course.


That comment wasn't saying anything about SC being GOOD because of the movement - just amazing what the old unlimited budget can buy you, that's all!  Once again, I'm not making the argument FOR SC - I just stated that SOMEONE must respect it for it to make the TOP 10 in the US on a relatively recent Golf Digest list!

Cheers to all!!

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

You MISSED the point I raised from your initial thrust that Shadow Creek is beyond Wolf Creek. I'll ASK YOU A-G-A-I-N how did you come to that conclusion? Please be specific as to holes, routing, memorability, etc, etc.

Shadow Creek is as The Emperor describes -- a testament to man's imagination to c-r-e-a-t-e something from nothing. That's a far cry from automatically
p-r-e-s-u-m-i-n-g it has architectural (golf holes) substance.

Wolf Creek is also a man-made creation. It has everything from an engineering perspective that Shadow Creek has PLUS it has holes that are truly unique, architecturally compelling and above all else -- fun and memorable. I'll be the first to mention that riding carts can be taxing through parts of the site, however, the totality of what one finds there is certainly IMHO a clear step beyond Shadow Creek.

Shadow Creek gets plenty of fanfare because it happens to be right near Sin City. It draws plenty of deep pocket types and given all the first class treatment you get as a guest I'm not surprised to see the course finish among the top ten modern courses by GolfWeek. I would still have the course among a top 100 modern listing but not in the top ten.

I also agree with Tommy in that there really are no holes at Shadow Creek that provide the player intent on architecture dynamics to be in "shock and awe" at their majesty.

Last point -- when you list The Straits ahead of The Golf Club in Columbus, OH among mocern courses -- I have to echo what Noel mentioned -- how much whiskey did you consume
B-E-F-O-R-E making that statement? The Straits has a number of fine holes but it tends to fall more on the parody of what Pete has done -- it does not fall within the realm to be considered AHEAD of The Golf Club IMHO.

Paul -- don't mean to pick on you but you need to really compare the quality of Arcadia Bluffs (on the other side of the Lake) with The Straits and you will find that the former is a much better course -- architecturally than the latter IMHO.

Happy New Year sir ...

[Norbert P]

   "The Bold Look of Kohler."  Pete Dye was a perfect choice.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

there really are no holes at Shadow Creek that provide the player intent on architecture dynamics to be in "shock and awe" at their majesty.

Matt, a perfect way of wording it. Thanks!

[GeoffreyC]

Paul

No offense but saying
"It may just be a matter of personal preference, but i would score the back nine WS 9, TKC 0.  So even if the front side was TKC 9, WS 0, which it isn't, then TKC cannot win the match."

doesn't tell me anything about WS or any individual hole.  . You still have not said a single thing related to golf architecture but don't bother for me anymore because anyone who could believe EVERY hole on the back nine at WS is architecturally better then its conterpart at TKC is not believable to me.

[Paul Richards]

Geoff:

>but don't bother for me anymore because anyone who could believe EVERY hole on the back nine at WS is architecturally better then its conterpart at TKC is not believable to me.


Then you tell me why, architecturally, any hole on TKC is better than its counterpart on WS?
 

[Paul Richards]

Selected excerpts from my visit to Wolf Creek:

Some very amazing views from this course.

One of the wildest landscapes I've yet seen from any golf course.

After a rough start, played holes 4-7 in 2-under-par.

#1 excellent starting hole, and #2 is a good follower.

Par 3's for the most part are very interesting.  

#3 is not a very good hole - blind, long and uphill.

#8 is almost impossible to play - and completely unfair - green surrounded by water and plays about 220 yards - just plain silly.

#9 - nowhere to hit the ball - just a plain bad hole.

#12 is just an AWFUL par 5.  Completely manufactured with a downhill sloping fairway, falling away into a lake.

Worth the 80-mile trip each way from Vegas?  Maybe.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Paul,
I really cannot see how WS goes 9 up on the back, I would have it at square and that would be generous to 13 at WS.

Noel,
I played all those courses you mention, but do you really think Kingsbarns is on par? The thing about Kignsbarns shaping is that it so dramatically ends and the line of the golf course. For me that did not make it feel like it was tied in. Kingsbarns greens may be superior, but I cannot see where else it would win out.



While WS is certainly a feast for the eye, the constant feel of the dunescape was a good choice. While people have complained about the superfluous "dunes" at WS, would you have preferred that Dye create that much undulation throughout the course and let the land between holes be flat? In my opinion, than the fairway shaping would have been over the top.

In so far as the comparison to Bandon, to me WS is miles ahead. The word contrived is bandied about with respect to WS, but not Bandon? I know the scale is different, but I think WS was stronger. What Pacific Dunes shows, is what a far more minimalist approach can garner and I would certainly put it ahead of WS. However, I am sensitive to the fact that WS property was not nearly as inspired PD.

[Paul Richards]

Ben:

I didn't really do the breakdown of TKC vs WS on the back-nine.  But it is my impression that the back of WS would win hands-down over TKC.

Noel:

Please don't tell me that the 17th at Crystal Downs isn't one of the best short four pars - anywhere!  Without the trees, doesn't it just feel like it could fit in near the end of the front-nine at Cypress Point?

[A_Clay_Man]

Matt- Could you do a comparison for us of Sc and TRC?, Please. Also, WC and TRC would be helpful to at least wet the Emperor's appetite for a Texas Tech trip.

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

Found my notes from TKC.  Here are a few of my observations from that day:

A tale of two nines.  

I LOVED the front nine - to me it felt like a cross between Crystal Downs and the Kapalua Plantation course (strange observation, I must say!).

Excellent routing, although a bit confined in some places, but nonetheless, very impressive.

Then the back nine was so BLAH in comparison!

#1 - very weird starting hole - no where to drive, neither fairway to either side of the bunkers seems like a good route - so i just hit into them!?!?

#2 an excellent and very difficult short 3 par - very penal when you miss the smallish green.

#4 great green complex - tucked in

# 5 - awesome three par to a punch bowl

#8 edges of the green actually seem to repel the ball on this neat short four par!

#9 - one of the neatest three pars with multi-directional tees - playing from either direction, it's a real hoot.

Front nine - A-plus!

#10 - did I miss something?

#11 - green tucked into trees is just ok

#12 and 18 are the best four pars on the back nine - in fact, from the approach shot in, #18 might actually fit in with the front nine.

#13 green is spectacular. unfortanately, the rest of the hole isn't so memorable.

# 15 - completely stupid hole.  455-yarder to a green falling away - and built for a 120-yard three par!

#17 - ?  not sure how I felt about it - tried very hard to like it.  but does it fit?


Overall, the back side through the trees is so radically different than the excellent front nine that it proved to be a huge disappointment.  I kept hoping the 'style' of the front nine would show through as I got to each tee on the back nine.  

Best suggestion?  Play the course with the nines reversed and that way you build up to the climax!

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()