[Matt_Ward]

I played the course for the first time in late '02 and although I enjoyed a good number of the holes I have to wonder what the thinking was in doing all the m-a-s-s-i-v-e earthmoving to "create" the finished produce one sees today?

As much as Pete and company did to create the Straits Course the finished work on the Irish simply goes way beyond and is almost a unique parody on the "Dye" style. I mean how many holes can one play that feature a blind par-3 like the 13th?

I just finished reading Golf World's '04 happenings and I have to wonder how the PGA will set-up the course for the event? I remember what happened with Oak Tree in '88 and the course was simply handstrung by a PGA field crew that didn't want the boys to be embarassed. You also had a rare situation when the famed OK wind simply layed down for the championship.

I for one don't want the course to be de-clawed so that you get some folks shooting 66-67's at will with little to challenge them.

I know the guys I play with have mixed feelings on the Straits Course and a few of them much prefer to play Blackwolf Run and even some would rather skip over to Lawsonia Links. Incidentally, I really enjoy the two just named.

I also don't doubt if brutal conditions should surface the whole notion of "fairness" will be an issue because things can get quite interesting with the close proximity to Lake Michigan.

Is the Straits course that good of a layout from an architectural perspective? I mean is it really better than a neighbor on the other side of the Lake -- Arcadia Bluffs? Has the architectural hand of man been overdone there to create the kind of holes you find right along the Lake's edge? Will the outcome of the PGA determine its ultimate standing?

Be verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry interesting to see how everything unfolds with the last major in '04 ...

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt Ward:

I struggle with the very question you've raised. When Whistling Straits first opened I spent three days playing and studying the course. My initial impression was that I enjoyed the course, though holes #5, 9, 17 and 18 I could have done without. On the plus side I enjoyed #1 as an opener, #4 as a strong test of driving, #8 for both the tee shot and options on the approach, #10 as a big par 5 and #13 because it offered a hint of Ballybunion's famous #11 (just a hint).

Then, a year or two went by and I visited Arcadia Bluffs as part of the excellent trip John McMillan put together. All I could think was that Herb Kohler must be pissed. Why? Because I honestly couldn't rate WS millions of dollars better than AB even if there were some things I didn't like about Arcadia.

So I am where I sense you are. Whistling Straits is certainly worth checking out, but if I go back to Kohler I'd probably prefer to just go play Blackwolf Run (River course).

[A_Clay_Man]

Haven't played the straits, so I won't comment but I believe the quality of BWR is a known entity and thats from very accomplished golfers. Getting the opportunity to play the original, will be special, this spring.

[Matt_Ward]

redanman:

Good question -- it's closer to Bulle Rock but it's a bit better than some of the clear "over-the-top" stuff you see with the course in Maryland. It will be interesting to see what the 2nd course will be like at Bulle Rock.

There is no way one can possibly / remotely (get the drift!) link the Straits Course to a classic like The Golf Club. I would have TGC among my top ten courses in the States -- the Straits could make my top 100 but more towards the rear of the second fifty.

Tim W:

I concur with your comments / re: Arcadia Bluffs. Look, both courses feature the heavy hand of man, however, it seems IMHO to tie itself a bit better together at AB than WS. For sheer difficulty the Straits is likely to be the more demanding because it features a few more do-or-die type holes -- the par-3's at WS can result in some unique scores if the wind whips around and the tees are pushed to the limit -- particularly the 17th.

It just seems that Pete and company had to really work at it to get what they wanted at WS -- I didn't get that same impression at AB.

P.S. For those going to Wisconsin a round or two at Lawsonia Links and Milwaukee CC is not a bad alternative. One other thing -- rounds at the Straits make rounds at Pebble look like the autobahn.

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt Ward:

While Whistling Straits probably is more difficult, for folks in the 10-20 handicap range I would guess Arcadia is more fun.

I know Dick Daley has carefully checked out Whistling Straits and also played Arcadia. Hopefully, dick can give us his updated thoughts.

One last point: I am happy the PGA will be played at Whistling Straits. I like the idea of one major favoring newer designs and it seems natural that role would fall to the PGA.

[Paul Richards]

Along with Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes, WS is the best Modern golf course in the US that I have seen (thus far - haven't been to Sand Hills - yet!).

[Mitch Hantman]

Matt,

I agree with many of your observations, including how wonderful Lawsonia Links is - one of my favorites in Wisc.  I do like the Straits course a lot, as well as the River course.  The Meadow Valley course is also wonderful.  Some of the holes on the back nine are among the best in the 4 course complex - not to be missed, and very underrated in my opinion.  The Irish course won't remind anyone of Ireland.  

As for Bulle Rock, the second course will not be built, even though 16 of the holes had been shaped.  My understanding is that the land was sold for housing about 6 months ago.  (Florida comes to Maryland?).

[Mike_Cirba]

It's very good, at many times dramatic, and it will be fun to watch the pros there, especially with a nice breeze.

But, it's overrated due to the postcard nature of many holes and it has some serious flaws.  It's better than Bulle Rock, but the artificial nature of the "dunes" reaches unintentional parody at times and there are some very poor holes in the mix.

It's probably among the best 30 courses built in the last half of the prior century, but closer to the bottom than the top.

Give me Blackwolf Run River, or better yet, The Ocean Course, any day.

[cardyin7]

The best way to play a real Pete Dye course is with blinders--to hide all the out-of-play distractions that have nothing whatsoever to do with playing the course itself.  One forgets that at one's peril. All Pete's courses have tees, fairways and greens.  Play them.  If one is really interested in concentrating on playing golf, nowhere is this admonition better taken than the Straits course.  I would suggest that more than one-half of the enormous expense involved has been to create out-of-play distractions.  The Straits' routing is eeriely reminiscent of Pete's design at the Ocean course at Kiawah.  At the Straits, the first hole starts east toward the lake, the ninth heads northwest, and the 18th also heads west.  Other than that, it is the same four holes one way,
nine holes the other way, and five holes back routing of the Ocean course.    So, it's not like Pete never has done this before.  As already noted, the weather will determine the result.  Incidently, when I visited Whistling Straits last fall, Pete was there busily adding back tees and, believe it or not, adding bunkers, particiularly at the short 14th, which heads back south at the far end of the course.  My guess is that Pete will still be moving dirt the day before, or maybe even during, the PGA.

[Wayne Freeman]

I played WS last year on a perfect fall day and I thought it was fab-  If it doesn't rate with Pebble, Pacific Dunes, or Casa de Campo ( all of which I've played), it can't be too far behind.  I loved the views and the holes right along the water, and we were able to move along at a good pace.  I enjoyed the routing and the variation of the holes and thought the par 3's were great.  Even with the way back tees though, they could tear it up in the PGA unless the wind blows.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bill;

Although stylistically WS is probably more a cousin of The Ocean Course than the parkland style of Bulle Rock, I think that the Ocean course is much more seamless aesthetically and without some of the really questionable holes that exist at Whistling.

On another thread I wrote;

"I much prefer the Ocean Course.  WS, despite greater dramatics, has greater flaws and some flat out bad holes.  It also is overdone aesthetically in a way that sometimes hurts the eyes."  

Bulle Rock is more like the humorless headmaster at a military prep school.  You have to respect it, but it's tough to like it very much.    

[Matt_Ward]

You know it would be nice to know for those who favor WS to illuminate if any have played Arcadia Bluffs -- because the same motif (building a course right on Lake Michigan) is carried out for both projects.

Hint Paul Richards -- you may need to see few more modern courses before proclaiming WS is in such elite category. Play The Kingsley Club and let me know if you think it's not a bit better as I believe it is.

I would favor Arcadia Bluffs because the creation by Warren Henderson and Rick Smith is not so blatantly "created" as you find with The Straits.

Look, I don't doubt that from the tips WS can and is
difficult -- I also don't doubt that if certain weather condition prevail it can be quite demanding. Take a few of the par-3's at WS and if you should face a 15-25 mph wind and you're at the tips with the pins tucked all I can say is good luck indeed!

redanman:

Puhleeeeeze -- let's not get carried away with demoting WS / re; Eagle Pines.

The course is beyond Bulle Rock by a good bit. I agree with Mike C that the course is not at the same level as The Ocean Course because the flow and manner by which the holes are created leans to the post-card theme approach.

To be totally candid -- I'd like to finally see the PGA set-up a Dye course as it was INTENEDED to play. Will the course be set-up with that in mind? Given the past track record of the PGA it's doubtful. Also, I have to wonder if the turf conditions will be optimum for the event given all the talk I've heard recently.

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

you said:
>Hint Paul Richards -- you may need to see few more modern courses before proclaiming WS is in such elite category.  Play The Kingsley Club and let me know if you think it's not a bit better as I believe it is.

>I would favor Arcadia Bluffs because the creation by Warren Henderson and Rick Smith is not so blatantly "created" as you find with The Straits.


First off, I have seen many Modern courses and yet, my opinion mentioned above, still holds.  I have discussed my feelings about Kingsley in many previous threads - bottom line is if it had 18 holes like the front nine, you are correct, it would be in this fast company.  Unfortunately, it doesn't and is probably a 60-80 on the Modern list, IMHO.

Arcadia Bluffs is also one of my favorites and is probably in my top 10 Modern, so good call there!

 

[Mike_Cirba]

Bill;

A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS to you and Renee!!  

I promise to be more reachable in the coming year.  How's that for a resolution?  

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

Appreciate the reply but answer me this -- how does the "manufactured" / "contrived" layout of a good number of holes hold up against the totality of TKC -- even the back nine at TKC doesn't really drop that m-u-c-h. Are you saying that WS would be among your personal top 50 courses in the USA and TKC would not?

If you mention WS as being in the company of Pac Dunes then where do you place Black Mesa, Arcadia Bluffs, etc, etc?

I don't doubt that WS has a number of holes of note but the sheer earthmoving and manipulation of the land can be a bit heavy-handed -- don't you think?

Like I said -- I'll be most interested in how WS is set-up for the event. Pete got shortchanged the first time around in '88 with Oak Tree -- we shall see next year.

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

to answer your questions:

>how does the "manufactured" / "contrived" layout of a good number of holes hold up against the totality of TKC

Despite the fact that WS is manufactured, if someone had blindfolded you and dropped you off on one of the lakeside holes and told you you were in Ireland or Scotland, could you really disagree with them?  

Kingsbarns is also a totally manufactured course.  Go stand on one of the hills and look at the dead-flat farmland next door.  Regardless, it also is still an excellent course.

>-- even the back nine at TKC doesn't really drop that m-u-c-h.

Sorry, but the back nine of the TKC is SOOOOOOOOOO disappointing after I was so enthralled by the front that it hurts my opinion of it tremendously.

>Are you saying that WS would be among your personal top 50 courses in the USA and TKC would not?

Absolutely!  Without a doubt!!  WS is only in my top 20 personal - and yet it 'ties' with PD and BD for top spot of the moderns - so that tells you something about how I regard the Classics vs the moderns.

TKC, as I stated before, is only 60-80 of the MODERNS - which means it's probably in my top 250 or 300 - that's all.

However, if both nines were as good as the front, it would be in my top 20 and top 4 moderns.  Make sense?

>If you mention WS as being in the company of Pac Dunes then where do you place Black Mesa, Arcadia Bluffs, etc, etc?

Haven't been to Black Mesa or Sand Hills yet.  Pete Dye GC and the River course are a couple modern courses that come to mind as better than Arcadia in my mind, but there probably aren't too many more.


>I don't doubt that WS has a number of holes of note but the sheer earthmoving and manipulation of the land can be a bit heavy-handed -- don't you think?

I think Pete Dye did a magnificent job making WS appear to be natural - as I said above, Kingsbarns comes to mind, as does, say, Old Head.  It's a good, big, strong golf course that if the wind blows and it plays hard and fast, will challenge the hell out of the PGA players next year!!

Cheers!!

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

Once last thing,

you said:
>how does the "manufactured" / "contrived" layout of a good number of holes hold up

I'll put this back at-ya.

Shadow Creek is as contrived as any golf course on earth, yet it has been widely regarded, far and wide, especially by Golf Digest, as one of the best modern courses, yet it, like WS, is completely manufactured.  How do you feel about that?

Cheers!!

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

I have never been a huge fan of Shadow Creek -- I don't doubt the engineering / creative juices to create "something" from nothing but the golf component is more of a "support" role to the prime mission in "creating" a layout on such an unappealing site. Give it an A+ for having the b*lls to move ahead when nothing was even there to start with. From the golf side -- there are no holes at Shadow Creek that would merit more than a quick mention at the 19th hole.

In short -- I don't see the hoopla that others routinely give to Shadow Creek. If you want to see a real feat of creativity with the tandem of quality holes in a rollarcoaster excitement package then head 80 miles east to Mesquite and play Wolf Creek IMHO. Wolf Creek may not be everyone's cup of tea for golf design but it does IMHO combine engineering / routing / shot values that surpass Shadow Creek.

To go back to WS -- Pete simply "overwhelmed" the entire site with a parody of different techniques -- overdoing something is not a sure fire recipe for the kind of things he has done in previous designs. The Irish Course is simply Mars being transported to a small corner of the Wisconsin landscape. I mean the blind 13th hole -- a par-3 -- hello?

To answer your other question -- the Straits Course is not to be confused with the natural dunes setting one sees in Ireland and Scotland. It is like inserting a double DD finished product on a flat landscape -- pardon my pun. Pete simply saw the existing land and decided to jettison that to be Disneyland in the Midwest.

Like I said before -- the layout does have a number of fine holes and if the course is prepared properly to allow the boys to hit drivers on a number of holes then things can be definitely appealing. The course and the PGA Championship will be dependent upon Mother Nature -- it could be benign or be very w-i-l-d.

Last item -- I believe you undersell the qualities of TKC. The front is certainly everything and more and while the back nine does come down a clear notch the TOTALITY of TKC is still a well done effort given the lack of such creativity you see with so many modern courses in the last 5-10 years IMHO.

I would have TKC among my personal top 100 -- it would not make the top 50 but on the flip side WS would just make the top 100 but more towarsds the last 20 spots. If you want to see Pete at his very best then look at what has happened since his efforts with TGC in Columbus with such a parody like WS -- it's very interesting and clearly at a different level IMHO.

Happy holidays ...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

From Golf World-Who and what people will be talking about in 2004:
 Whistling Straits -- Take a look at Wisconsin's homage to links golf along Lake Michigan for the first time, and it's hard to believe the Straits Course was flatter than Kansas before Pete Dye and his bulldozers arrived in the mid-1990s. Next August, when the PGA Championship comes calling, tour pros might wish they could level the place once again. Early returns from players sampling the course offer mixed reviews -- some saying it will play too easy, others noting if the winds blow they'll need an abacus to keep track of scores. At the same time, others wonder just how the PGA of America is going to get 30,000-plus spectators in and out of the course (accessible only by two-lane road) -- not to mention around the undulating layout. Said one course caddie last fall: "With the bandage concession [for blisters and sprained ankles], I'm going to set up outside the front gate that week, I'll be able to retire."

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

Just a quick response:

Have played Wolf Creek - and it's wonderful, but it is NO Shadow Creek.

The Irish Course is a real disappointment in my book - always play the Irish and THEN the Straits course - or just skip the Irish and play 36 at the Straits - just the same as you always play Meadow Valley before venturing over to the River course.

The Golf Club is very special - however, I would much rather play WS any day than TGC.  It's a top 25 modern course as opposed to a top 3 like WS.  Just a personal preference, I suppose.

cheers!!

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

you said:
>I believe you undersell the qualities of TKC. The front is certainly everything and more and while the back nine does come down a clear notch the TOTALITY of TKC is still a well done effort given the lack of such creativity you see with so many modern courses

I'm just giving you my humble opinion, but the back side was SO disappointing that I almost wished I hadn't played it!  I went there not expecting much (I hadn't heard much about it yet) so when I'd finished the front nine, I was blown away and couldn't wait to see the back.  Perhaps if I'd played the nines in reverse, I wouldn't feel so bad about it?

Also, Wolf Creek has to have one of the most bizarre landscapes surrounding a golf course that I have ever seen!  It's almost like a course was plopped onto the landscape of Mars.  The course itself is pretty strong - top 100 modern, no doubt - but what you remember most about the place is that alien territory around the course!!

Cheers!

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas:

I'm not allowing "outside" elements to skew my thinking on WS. Look, I don't think my comments were meant to disparage the cumulative efforts of what IS there, however, I just think that Pete and company had to "work" at creating something from nothing and it seems at times to be a strain at the actual final product that one sees there.

If you look at a number of his noteworthy earlier efforts you have to wonder if the "over-the-top" has become more of the central emphasis than in creating holes that seem to fit the landscape a tad better. I don't think anyone in his right mind can compare such a gem as TGC with layouts of more recent vintage such as Lost Canyons, Bulle Rock, WS, to name just three.

It just seems like the existing land had to be "helped" in some sort of "over-the-top" manner. The course is still a strong layout and I'm really hoping the powers-that-be at the PGA will play the course at maximum length and allow the elements to have some sort of influence with the existing distance played as is. Unfortunately, the PGA does have a record of dumbing-down the layouts to bolster scoring and I don't believe WS should be handled in that same fashion.

As an FYI -- I am a big time fan of Pete Dye and believe he does some incredible things but I just have to wonder if WS could not have been better. Like I said before -- I just believe the Henderson / Smith effort at Arcadia Bluffs is a much more complete and finished effoft that seems to jive with the existing site and has holes that work in concert with one another. Like I said before -- I've not found one person who actually believes that the Straits Course is superior to AB.

Paul:

Please tell me specifically (hole-by-hole) or otherwise how Wolf Creek is "NO" Shadow Creek? From a standpoint of just memorability -- I'd take Wolf Creek over Shadow Creek. You actually have holes of character and uniqueness at WC --I don't doubt man's was involved in the creation of both -- but Shadow gets plenty of ink because of the scale and nature of what was there and what there is now. It also happened to be the first successful project of that scale and cost.

I just believe Wolf Creek has gone one step beyond that.

Paul -- if you're memory only allows you remember the landscape then you must have truly forgotten an array of stellar holes that dot the landscape -- e.g. the 2nd, 8th, 13th, 14th, 17th, to name just a few few. I'm not enamored with the silly waterfall that takes place at the closer but Wolf Creek provides an "experience" that is one step beyond that of SC IMHO. Plenty of people have played SC and may have enjoyed it but you never forget the rollarcoaster of sensations and emotions that you get with Wolf Creek IMHO.

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

Guess it isn't just me - here's the lists from 2003 - all have SC above WC:


2003    2003   2003         COURSE
GD   GD   GM   GM   
ST   PUB  US   WD   
1    7    52   89   SHADOW CREEK GC
2    22              WOLF CREEK
3    35              EDGEWOOD TAHOE GC
4    41              LAKE LAS VEGAS (REFLN BAY)
5                    MONTREUX G & CC
6                    SOUTHERN HIGHLANDS GC
7    78              CASCATA
8    91              RIO SECCA GC
9                    LAKE LAS VEGAS(SOUTHSHORE)
10                   ROYAL LINKS GC

Cheers!

[GeoffreyC]

Paul

I have not yet played WS but I have played The Ocean Course and Kingsley Club.  

Could you please elaborate using some specific architectural features and strategies of individual holes why WS is a top 3 ELITE course and TOC and KC are not?

With regard to KC I totally disagree with your general placement and specifically your lack of respect for some of the great holes on the back nine.  What about #13 is less then world class?  Where have you found a bolder and more unique and natural greensite?  No less then the great Noel Freeman   made a complimentary comparison of KC #12 with #14 at Shinnecock Hills! Pretty good company.  I consider #15 to be a fantastic long par 4 with and incredible greensite utilizing the smallest green on the course at the end of the longest par 4.  Pretty bold I would say. What do you say?  #16 is a really workable redan that plays as intended.  I like it better then the redan at Hidden Creek that Ran so raves about.  #18 is a wonderful finisher that traverses the forested area and back into the great dunes-like land of the front nine.  This routing feature is a lot like the movement of several holes at Friar's Head but there from the farmland into the dunes.

I can fully respect your opinions but it would surely help if you included some specifics related to the architecture and playability of individual holes to see why you reach your conclusions.

Thanks

[Paul Richards]

What is this 'gang up on Paul thread'?

Geoff:

How about giving us the run-down on the 'world-class' features of TOC and KC first?

thanks

Cheers!!

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