[Brian Phillips]

Below is a picture of a hole at my local course.  It is the second oldest course in Norway and the first three holes were used in 1927 and was started by an Englishman that owned the local factory.

There are now two tees on each hole to create an 18 hole course from the same golf holes.

On this hole the green backs onto a small training area, the next tee is upwards on the picture.  The club wants to create a more strategic hole.  They want to move the green to the right and remove the trees on the left so that the lake is more visible from the fairway.

Re-design the hole anyway you want without playing down the left hand side of the trees on the existing trees as that is hole 5 coming back up the hill.  The difference in height between tee and turning point in the fairway is about ten metres...thirty feet.



Just fire away with any questions.

I will post my possible redesign...later in the week..

Brian

[Tony_Chapman]

What a cool thought. Let us try to do this.  

Obviously, I will probably have a few questions to get going. Would it be possible to move one of your tees to the right, creating more a of straight hole one time and then dogleg the second time around?

Also, forgive me is this hole about 330 yards.

I think taking the trees out on the right is ideal to opening up the lake and making it a hazard. Is the lake even in play right now? Also moving the green back and to the right has this effect as well.

I wish I new how I could draw this and let you really know what I am thinking. How wide is the fairway? Is it wide enough for a bunker as a central hazard that you could stay short of or try to carry creating a short pitch to the green?

Oh, the thoughts going through my head right now.

[A_Clay_Man]

Brian- The only head scratcher I got is from this practice area.

[Brian Phillips]

Would it be possible to move one of your tees to the right, creating more a of straight hole one time and then dogleg the second time around?

Also, forgive me is this hole about 330 yards.

I think taking the trees out on the right is ideal to opening up the lake and making it a hazard. Is the lake even in play right now? Also moving the green back and to the right has this effect as well.

I wish I new how I could draw this and let you really know what I am thinking. How wide is the fairway? Is it wide enough for a bunker as a central hazard that you could stay short of or try to carry creating a short pitch to the green?

Oh, the thoughts going through my head right now.

Tony,

No you are not allowed to move the tees.

Yes, it is 330 yards.

By taking the trees out you could put a centra bunker in place.

The lake is only in play if you don't get a draw with a wood off the tee...i know I have been in it!

You can print out the picture and draw on that and then e-mail it to me and I will post it or even draw it up in CAD if you want and colour like this one.

A_Clay_Man,

The existing parctice area is about 30 metres on from the green and to the left.  At the moment it is just one putting green that is used for for chipping and pitching practice.  They want to use this green and intergrate it in the practice area.

Brian

[A_Clay_Man]

Brian- Seems odd that there would be a practice area near the 3rd hole, but I assume it is nearer the clubhouse (start) because you mentioned it was orig. a 3 holer, no?

But thats neither here nor there. My novice gut says prune as much of the trees on the left, that is allowable, and remove as many, if not all, along the right. Shorten the hole, making it a "go or no go" decision with as much centerline nastiness that can be dug. With the lake on the right, you would soon learn the members who have no fear.

Of course this would probably not be inkeeping with the rest of the course, but those holes can eventually change too.

[Tony_Chapman]

Brian - Just a few more questions.

Currently, how wide is the fairway? It appears the way to play this hole would be to hit 5-iron off the tee.

Can you briefly describe the 2nd and 4th holes, what is going on around this hole in the players round? Par, yardages, difficulty, etc.

The trees on the left, do they play an integral in the strategy of the fifth? ie. If we took them all out, would it ruin the fifth hole. And, I guess if we take out all of these trees, are we creating a hole that would look out of sorts with the other 8 holes?

Lastly, your original post states that your club wants to move the green to the left - away from the lake - is this correct?

Thanks for your patience with my inquiry.

[Brian Phillips]

Tony,

I apologise, the brief was wrong and it should have said 'to the right' and I have now changed it.  Thanks.

I reckon the fairway is only about thirty to forty yards wide.

Yes you can hit a 5 iron off the tee.  I usually hit a 4 iron off the 3rd tee and hit a 5 wood off the 12th.  Usually have a 9 iron or wedge (100 metres) to the green from the fairway.

Adam,

Yes, it is unusual but it is a small golf course and this is the only place for a training area.  They have a putting green in front of the clubhouse (which was only built about 6-8 years ago).  The reason they want to make the training area bigger is just because of that.  If someone is going to make an effort to walk all the way down there it had better be something decent.

The trees on the left do play an integral part of the fifth...I have been in them as well!

Brian

[Tommy_Naccarato]

[Norbert P]

Tommy, your bunkers look upholstered.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

There is only one bunker--the others are sandy washes.

The entire hole totally goes against the Norway-way of thinking.

[A_Clay_Man]

Tommy- That looks great. The placement of 12 is brilliant. The only thing I would suggest would be a bunker somewhere on the left fairway edge along the line of charm for #3.   causing players off 12 to back off of the waylay. Especially with the practice green in play, for a serious pull.

[JSlonis]

Tommy's design looks good but Brian posted above that the tees could NOT be moved.  

[Brian_Gracely]

If the tees can't be moved, can the fairway or green be moved?  

[Tony_Chapman]

Brian G. - Yes, the fairway can be moved, but you can't make the hole play to the left of the existing trees as that is the fifth fairway. As well, the green can be moved.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Isn't this the chance we always wanted, the chance to show that we're every bit as good as Mackenzie designing an imaginary hole?  Already we see how jolly difficult it is to design even an indifferent hole let alone one good enough to attract visits from GCAers worldwide.  Not surprisngly, I'll not be risking vilification by sharing my puny attempts with you, but I'll have a lot of fun in private, if you see what I mean.

[JNC Lyon]

I belive that one or two bunkers should be installed which require more challenge in reaching the left side of the fairway and possibly in driving the green from the shorter tee. The right side of the fairway and the green should be moved toward the lake. It sould be angled so the best approach is from the right, near the lake. One bunker should be installed to the left of the green. Maybe I am wrong, but this hole is similar to a reversed #10 at Riviera. It gives great challenge to those driving the green, but it rewards a well placed layup. This might work better if the hole was shortened a bit.

[Dan Kelly]

Tommy's version would be great for an Aerial of the Day (R.I.P.).

It looks like a two-legged, armless green monster from one of those Japanese horror movies.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

On no, there goes Tokyo,
Godzilla!

(For all of you children of the 70's)

[Brian Phillips]

I like what JNC_Lyon is saying and I will show you my design suggestion probably on Friday or Satruday.

Not to sure about Tommy's design as he has moved a tee...and he has put in the road hole green and bunker.  The green also seems not in proportion to the rest of the hole.

Brian

...but these are just my personal opinions..

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Brian,
It's in proportion, and it was inspired by the Road hole. I'm just using the strategy and then creating more pins and the possibility of two flags, adding some variety with the option of the two tees which I don't care if I can move or not. This is my rendition and if they don't like it, the customer can stick it up the Grand Wazo....opps Sorry grand wazo!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Brian,
Call it Max Behr visits Norway, and its the contoure of the green which would be obvious that make possibilities of more pins be in line with Max's thinking. Please also notice that there is no 1st cut of rough. Only sparse natural, meadow grass areas that are playable.

If I can be so overt as Dr. A. MacKenzie, This would be a hole that would embellish the natural surroundings, and if the members dont' like it, then I can drink my scotch elsewhere!

[peter_p]

Shorten up the holes by about 30 meters by moving the green, and make 12 shorter than 3. Driveable to some.
Reduce the left forest by 75%, eliminate as much of lakeside forest as possible.
Mid fairway guarded by backslash diagonal ridge (or small bunker(s)
Move the green to the lake and closer to the tee, green would be C-shaped, with an interior bunker next to the lake, wrapped around by the green. Green would slope L to R, toward the lake.
If you're going to miss the green, short and close to the lake is much preferable to hole high left for recoverability.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

JNC,
This is Golf Architecture.

What would you say if I told you that the element of Riveira #10 could be likened to that of the Road Hole green? It, in fact, can be.

How? There is no Road Hole Bunker?

There doesn't have to be--the strategy is similar in the regard to the crown affect of the left side of the green, causing a shot to possible roll off, especially in the back of the green where the crown is even more severe. Our Golden Age architects were inspired by these features, as well as using different interpretations of them. In this case, in my simple and criticized drawing, you have some that say that the green complex itself is too big. How? I'm not building the Road Hole green, I'm building a green inspired by the Road Hole, only bigger and deeper to offer more pin-placements with different contours then the Road Hole.

Also, when was the last time you saw a "L"-shaped Road Hole green? while the green maybe somewhat bulging in its left-rear area, it is more of a splinter of a green.

I hope that makes sense. Obviously I was hoping to get ripped to shreds futher on my thoughts.(and words) But this is the best part of critique--everyone, including Rees Jones has an opinion. I love it when someone is on a GREAT course, and their critique of that GREAT course gets so intricate, and that their observation has finality--I laugh! Isn't the most controversal features worth more observation then just a one-time look and judgement?

Why it's as accurate as designing a golf hole from a flat featureless drawing! How am I supposed to know the truest features that make for the great golf? How am I to know that the hole has certain characteristics and traits that make it unique whn I'm seeing it without actually knowing the sites truest worth. We aren't talking one or two visits, we are talking several.

Just my thoughts, Merry Xmas!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

JNC You removed your post! How come?

[JNC Lyon]

When you've got a good thing, don't change it
Besides, "The Captain" never built a Road Green in his life.

 I do understand what you are getting at. I do believe that surrendering to convention is never a good thing. However,there is indeed a fine line between creating a unique feature on golf course and going outside of the constraints. I would maintain that the Riviera hole is better suited for this Norwegian course than a dramatic road green. Hopefully, someone will go to Norway or someplace comparable to spread the gospel of Raynor

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