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Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Scottish Golf Course Glut
« on: December 20, 2003, 10:51:56 PM »
From todays Scotland on Sunday :


Golf course glut drives game into a bunker

GRAHAM OGILVY


PICTURESQUE Castle Park Golf Club was described as Stuart Fortune’s "dream business venture" and he worked tirelessly to make the course a success.

But the struggling farmer never attracted enough players to the club in Gifford, East Lothian. Two weeks ago the 59-year-old father-of-three took his own life.

His suicide is an extreme and tragic symbol of a problem affecting most of Scotland’s clubs. The disastrous over-provision of courses has forced many to slash membership fees or offer special rates.

As Scotland’s planners have given the green light to new golf projects, with even more in the pipeline, clubs both urban and rural have found themselves in the economic rough, forced to introduce sharp high street sales tactics.

Dunkeld and Birnam Golf Club has dropped its annual membership fee from £250 to just £1. But that still makes Dunkeld £1 more expensive than St Michael’s in Fife, which has scrapped membership fees for its centenary year in a desperate bid to attract new members and fill 28 vacancies.

Crail Golfing Society in the East Neuk of Fife has no waiting list for membership and is offering two for one on a round of golf. Even mighty Gleneagles has no waiting list at the moment, while St Andrews Duke’s Course, which also has no waiting list, is offering free membership of up to five months if golfers sign up now.

VisitScotland boasts that Scotland has 540 golf courses, but the Scottish Golf Union lists 630 courses and a further 63 driving ranges. In the past decade more than 80 new courses have opened in Scotland, but total membership of all clubs has stuck at around 250,000.

It is estimated that half of all Scottish golf clubs have no waiting list and 37% of those that do report waiting lists falling. Richard Barnes, secretary of Dunkeld and Birnam Golf Course, said: "The new courses, with reduced green fees, are taking away a bit from the established courses. Our £1 fee is a one-off. It’s something we have never done in our history, but I think you can safely say it is market forces that have pushed us into that direction."

Outwith the hallowed clubhouses of the R&A, Muirfield, Rosemount, Panmure and a handful of prestigious clubs, waiting lists once legendary for their length have become a distant folk memory.

Nick Holligan, assistant professional at Edinburgh’s Liberton club, whose 18th-century clubhouse was designed by Robert Adam, said: "Five to eight years ago, the waiting list was eight to 10 years. But in January and February this year we cleared the waiting list. It is because of the over provision. There are just more golf courses being built."

John Elvin, secretary of the Merchants of Edinburgh club is equally pessimistic. He said: "Golf isn’t perceived as cool. Almost universally in the east of Scotland we have suffered a drop in the waiting lists.

"Clubs anticipate a 5% natural drop off in membership per year. So if your club has 600 members, 5% is 30 members. So the club would be looking to take in 30- 50 members a year.

"In years gone by you would have a waiting list of 150 - 200 to become members. Now you are struggling to get your replacement 30-50, so there is going to be a gradual erosion of membership.

"The increased number of courses is one factor in falling membership. But it is also because there are so many more leisure activities. Take family membership of health clubs, which is £1,500 - £2,000. People ask themselves do I take part with the family or do I selfishly go and play golf for the same price? The answer is they go and take part with the family."

He added: "There has been an increase in new build courses, many of which have been very successful. There are certain times of the year golf cannot be played on a traditionally built Scottish course. You put in a new course with good quality green and well-drained fairways and these courses are playable."

Last month, a further indication of the scale of the crisis facing Scottish golf came with the formal receivership of the £4.5m Scottish National Golf Centre at Drumoig, outside St Andrews.

Yet fairways and greens keep popping up all over the country, with more than 80 new courses being built north of the Border in the past decade.

The national golf centre had lost more than £1m and failed to attract sufficient customers since it opened in 1999. Its receivership follows the failure of upmarket golf club Letham Grange, in Angus.

A spokesperson for the Scottish Golf Union said: "People don’t have as much time as they used to. Scotland’s population is ageing. There are more car-park golfers who turn up with their stuff in the boot, change, play then leave. The social side, the drinking at the 19th hole, has suffered because of this, and so have the clubs.

"To combat many of these current trends in Scottish golf, the golf union is implementing various measures to attract and develop juniors into the game of golf."

JOIN THE CLUB

IN RECENT years, the top Scottish golf clubs have been able to charge sky-high rates and be choosy with their clientele. In 2000, the waiting-list for the Muirfield Golf Club in Edinburgh stood at seven years.

Some clubs subjected the hopeful mortals clamouring to join them to a vetting process, which sometimes laid bare their private lives and business dealings, as well as their golfing prowess, to the most intrusive scrutiny.

Throughout the ordeal, the view was given that one word or gesture out of place would be all it would take for the application to fail.

Quite apart from the social stigma, rejection also meant that the failed candidate would be cast into golf's outer darkness of municipal driving ranges and pay-to-play courses.

The nightmare of attempting to gain membership of a golf club even became the subject of a Channel Four Cutting Edge documentary, which gave a fly-on-the-wall insight into the system at Northwood club in Middlesex.

In 1999, golfers at the exclusive Loch Lomond Golf Club, on the shores of the famous loch, which offers games among some of Scotland’s most stunning scenery, were asked to limit the number of rounds that they played there each year. The club was so popular that it shut down its Scottish waiting-list and for a time only accepted applications from other parts of the UK and from overseas.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2003, 09:40:31 AM »
It is interesting how market forces work. Back in the 80's when the Japanese ruled the roost they seemed to perpetuate a trading style which was akin to "swarm soccer". This is the type of soccer the wee ones play, where everyone is chasing the ball, all at the same time, creating a swarm. I tagged this mentality of investing as "the run run run" style. What makes it fair is that the last group to run and buy, are rarely smart enough to cut losses and run to get out, almost immediatly. Watch these folks that don't, because when they figure out, it is time to sell, they will run run run to sell, and invariably it will be a good purchase for you.

I couldn't help but think of the 20/20 conference and how hindsight is!

This should be a good thing for us bargain shoppers, but sad for those with too much capital exposed.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2003, 12:18:21 PM »
It is amazing how, in the face of local economic pressure, the Scots continue to raise their prices to visitors. I am currently planning a trip to Scotland in July and EVERY course is asking for a higher fee than they did in 2003... on top of increases they imposed in 2002 and, in most cases, 2001! They are starting to price themselves along the lines of some American destinations and, as a result, will start forcing travelers to consider other locations. Sadly, the same thing (maybe worse) is happening in Ireland.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2003, 07:24:56 PM »
This is not only a Scottish issue.  It is a fundamental issue - at all levels - about golf provision in the UK as a whole.  In truth, it's a huge issue.  I need the sleep of a night and the sobriety of a clear-skyed dawn to make a serious contribution.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2003, 01:42:32 AM »
Michael,

Are you talking about only the "big name" courses like TOC, Carnoustie, etc. or are you talking about those that aren't common destinations for American tourists?  Always seemed to me like there were three tiers of pricing over there:

Big name famous - TOC, Carnoustie, Troon, Muirfield, Turnberry, Kingsbarns, etc.
Lesser known but known - places like North Berwick, Gullane, Luffness, Prestwick
Places 99% of Americans don't visit - all the ordinary club courses, munis like the really nice muni complex in Troon, etc.

Are you seeing increases in the latter category as well?  Are the increases you seeing in pounds in just in dollars?  The dollar is has been dropping a lot over the last couple years, if you are calculating based on that its pretty meaningless as far as the actual situation over there -- though of course in the long run they have to take that into account as a round at Pebble Beach is becoming more and more competitive with one at TOC, most Americans think of Pebble as their "ideal" golf course (after ANGC) and not TOC.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

ForkaB

Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2003, 05:06:58 AM »
Doug is generally right about the "tier" system, although I would say it's two tiers, rather than three.  From what I can see, prices at all but the "name' courses are pretty stable.  However, the top-tier/name courses can, in effect, charge what they want to because even at the currently inflated prices they represent good value for money to that segment of the travelling golfer population which likes history and links golf.  The number of these courses is generally fixed, and at many of them they are restricting visitor times to allow for more member play.  So, as demand rises in this environment of restricted supply, so do prices!  Econ. 101.

As for the other tier, until visiting golfers show a penchant for playing at places they (and their buddies back home) have never heard of, the demand for and prices of playing at these places will not rise.

Keith Durrant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2003, 04:41:23 PM »
...the top-tier/name courses can, in effect, charge what they want to because even at the currently inflated prices they represent good value for money to that segment of the travelling golfer population which likes history and links golf.  

With the exchange rate at 1 quid to $1.76 and rising, the value case is fast diminishing.

e.g. US$160 to play Western Gailes in summer 2004...?!

Gullane No.1,  and North Berwick are quoting US$125 and up.

I for one, hope Sterling weakens by next spring when i'd like to come and play.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2003, 10:36:52 PM »
Doug - I booked times at North Berwick and Dunbar for July and both courses have increased their fees from 2003, which were increased from 2002. And, yes, all the Links Trust courses have also increased their fees... as has Kingsbarns every year for the past four. In 2001 Kingsbarns was £105, TOC was £85. Kingsbarns is quoting £135 for 2004, TOC is £110. And, in the case of Kingsbarns, this not due exclusively to demand. I have a good friend who works at Kingsbarns and he tells me they are often hurting for players, even in the peak months.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2003, 10:51:26 PM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Keith Durrant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Golf Course Prices
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2003, 04:40:05 PM »
I had some idle time and researched the following British & Irish course green fees for visitors - based on playing on a weekday - some of the fees are day fees, but essentially thats the minimum you'd pay in 2004.

It does tend to lend support to Scotland pricing itself higher. North Wales/Liverpool and North Devon would seem to be the best value destinations.

                           Weekday   
                             GBP   USD   1.76
         
Royal Troon                175   308   
Turnberry                    130   229   
Sunningdale               125   220   
Royal Birkdale             125   220   
Portmarnock               115   202   
TOC                           110   194   
Royal Liverpool             95   167   
Carnoustie                 95   167   
Royal County Down    95   167   
Western Gailes           90   158   
Royal St Georges       90   158   
Royal Portrush           90   158   
Ballybunion                87.5   154   
Royal Cinque Ports    80   141   
Formby                       80   141   
Gullane                     75   132   
North Berwick             70   123   
Walton Heath             70   123   
Royal Dornoch           66   116   
County Louth             63   111   
Woodhall Spa             60   106   
Hunstanton                60   106   
Ganton                       60   106   
Royal Porthcawl          60   106   
Saunton                     55   97   
S&A                           55   97   
Hillside                       55   97   
County Sligo               42   74   
Royal St Davids         40   70   
Nairn                          39.5   70   
Conway                      35   62   
Royal North Devon     32   56   


THuckaby2

Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2003, 04:45:18 PM »
Thanks for the effort, Rott.  Yes, this does confirm that these clubs have figured out what they can charge... Funny thing is, I'd guess most of them could go even higher if they wanted, and suffer no decrease in interest, primarily from Americans and Japanese. It costs so damn much to play at most great courses here, and everywhere in Japan from what I hear, that these STILL seem like relative bargains.

One question - that fee for Troon is for the day of golf, right?  That is, one round at each course plus lunch?  That's about what I recall paying this summer... we sure as hell didn't pay any more for that...

TH


Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2003, 04:53:58 PM »
One question - that fee for Troon is for the day of golf, right?  That is, one round at each course plus lunch?  That's about what I recall paying this summer... we sure as hell didn't pay any more for that...

185 is the Royal Troon fee and yes, it is for 36-holes and lunch.

As my trip is already paid for, I can attest that paying for the green fees in pounds was much easier than understanding the US dollar equivalent ... ;)

With membership down in many of the clubs, I was thinking of joining one, maybe St. Michaels, just outside of St. Andrews ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

THuckaby2

Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2003, 04:57:26 PM »
Mike - couldn't you join a club like St. Michael's for about what the day at Troon costs?  I tried NOT to think about things like that on my last trip... Thankfully I had pre-paid for all of it months before the trip also, so it made it easier NOT to think about costs whilst playing also.  Mind over matter is a wonderful thing.   ;)

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2003, 05:19:36 PM »
There are all sorts of issues at stake.

Golf tourism is terribly important to only a few, but very prominent, regions of the British Isles.  Golf tourists are drawn to the classic areas of St Andrews, Ayrshire coast, Lothians coast, Kent coast, Lancashire coast, Surrey heathland etc.  In these regions there is a cascade effect where, because A charges £100, B can charge £75 and C £50.  It does not seem to be true of Northern Ireland where courses close to R.Co.Down and R.Portrush still offer value proportionate to their challenge, class and status without the proximity effect.  

Apart from these well-defined areas, other forces come into play.  Generally speaking, it is expensive (by my standards) for a visitor to play a well-presented members' club course anywhere around our major cities.  The driving force here is that there is enough general wealth among the community to supply members willing to pay, say, £1,000-£2,000 for a year's membership to have the course available to them at least some part of every day without being hindered by visitors.  But all these clubs are aware that they need the income from company days and so on to keep the annual subs at that sort of level.  They price their green fees between £40 and £80 to discourage the everyday golfer, yet making it accessible to those with company backing whose money they would like.

Clearly, the likes of Sunningdale and Wentworth are at a far higher financial level, demanding quite a lot more of their members, yet remaining just about affordable to those who are prepared to pay serious money to play their courses.

Let us leave out of the argument the one or two private clubs which manage to keep themselves totally private, with world-class courses and, well, who knows how much membership is, but it won't be as much as the next category....

There are a few very expensive clubs such as Loch Lomond and The Wisley which operate more in the manner of private members' clubs in the USA with brand new courses and no visitors other than members' guests.  Others have been attempted but few have succeeded.  

Historically, golf was a classless game, played in Scotland by king and commoner in an otherwise utterly class-denominated age.  It is, to some extent, still that in places like St Andrews where citizens of the borough can buy a ticket enabling them to play all the Links Trust-owned courses for about £100 a year - when there are no visitors, that is.  When golf moved south it soon acquired a class status.  Private clubs were the preserve of the professional classes.  That was not necessarily a bad thing.  They aspired to the highest values in everything.  It does not surprise me that they sought out the likes of Harry Colt to design their courses.  

The common man was not always despised.  Many clubs fostered artisans' sections in which artisan members could play the course for a much reduced annual subscription in exchange for physical work on the course.  They were not, as you might expect, allowed inside the clubhouse and they were barred from many competitions.  Happily, some of these artisan clubs survive to this day and artisan membership is almost more difficult to obtain than full membership.

But what about the occasional golfer, the beginner, the pauper, children, or those who (through no fault of their own) do not happen to know the right people?  With the exception of much of Scotland, the rest of Britain has made little or no provision for them.  There are, still, a few municipal courses, but there will not be any new ones.  How can a council (city, borough, town or rural district) justify the cost of maintenance of a golf course when they have the social problems of which our press makes us only too aware?  Enjoy the lovely municipal courses of Ayrshire while you can!  They are a remnant of a golden (and enlightened) age.  

Under the current economic climate it would be fairly impossible to set up a members' club in the UK in the way it was done 100 years ago, the economic structure being so different.  But farming is in dire trouble, the R&A declared in the 1990s that 700 new courses would have to be built in order to cope with current demand, and many of us simply cannot afford the joining fee for a pukka club, even if there are vacancies on their waiting list.  

But here I interrupt myself.  There are plenty of vacancies at inner-city and remote clubs.  Many are advertising memberships on the internet.  None is demanding a joining fee!  I could join (and I might) Reddish Vale for a payment of the annual sub (substantially under £1,000) and I would get the use of a cracker of a Mackenzie course.  True, it would not be in the state of upkeep to which our American friends are used, and greens will be vandalised from time to time, and they've never cured the landslide where the railway used to run alongside the 10th, but it is still a heck of a sight better than most of the local pay-and-play facilities.  

Yet it is within the lower echelons of pay-and-play golf that the future of British golf lies.  Agriculture is in an awful state.  Farmers are encouraged to take their land out of agriculture and into other uses.  Some go down the golfing line.  Many (not just farmers but their advisors, too) who try to get into the big time simply go bankrupt.  They are aware that there is a business market out there driven by the sort of tourist and business golf on offer in Spain and Portugal (almost entirely instant golf of the least subtle kind - no names!).  Suddenly the RTJ family, Nicklauses, Cupps, Millers, Littons and so on provide instant America in Britain.  Suddenly we have the sort of courses we see on TV and can only aspire to.  Their patrons are the new wealthy, and (snob as I am) I can only describe them as nouveau riche - no breeding, no class.  You know what that means in golfing terms.  A great many of these high-level courses and establishments fall foul of economic pressures and go under.  

At the other end of the scale is the simplest pay-and-play facility.  They are largely terrible, but they survive.  They provide the young, the less fortunate, the less well-connected, the unemployed and BBC rejects such as me with the opportunity to play for an affordable fee.  It is usually purgatorial on and around the greens but at least my wife and I can play 9 holes each for a total of under £20 whereas at any members' course locally we would be looking at not less than £80.  I could buy a return flight to New York for that and scrounge a round off a GCA member for the same sum!  (Don't worry, I won't.)  

More to the point, these places do not go under.  In a few years' time they expand to 18 holes or add better greens, acquire a brick-built clubhouse or plant a few trees.  (I'm afraid, GCAers, that on some courses the addition of trees is a good thing.)  They are still in business, and providing a service - of a kind, I agree - when many of the big-name projects have foundered.  

I'm afraid that golf in the British Isles is polarising rapidly.  Tourists and those for whom money is not a problem will continue to enjoy the best, if they cam afford it.  Below that level, the club golfer does not care enormously about his course.  He cares about his results in competitions, ideally Saturday and Sunday each week, but mid-week also if he can sneak out of work early.  The rest of us have to begin to come to terms with the fact that we will never get to play the great courses - they have been priced beyond our reach by the overseas visitors and our wealthy business colleagues.

The good thing is that the overseas visitors value our great courses.  Our own only hanker after the latest recreations of Florida in a typical English meadow.

THuckaby2

Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2003, 05:25:42 PM »
Mark - excellent summary of what seems to be a very sad state of affairs re golf in the UK.

But one statement really strikes me:

"The rest of us have to begin to come to terms with the fact that we will never get to play the great courses - they have been priced beyond our reach by the overseas visitors and our wealthy business colleagues."

All I have to say to that is:

welcome to American golf.  

We've been that way seemingly forever.

 :'( :'( :'( :'(

TH

Brian_Gracely

Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2003, 05:32:31 PM »
Tom,

The only thing I'd disagree about that statement is that in the UK, unlike the US, non-members can actually play the best courses.  If Perry Golf (or whoever) offered a package that included Pine Valley, Merion, Winged Foot, Shinnecock and NGLA, they would get at least as much if not more than they get for a trip with Muirfield, TOC, Carnoustie, Troon, etc..


Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2003, 06:11:14 PM »
Tom,

I was lucky enough to be treated to rounds at Pasatiempo, Olympic Lake and Meadow Club when I was in California at the beginning of the year.  I was seriously embarrassed by the fees my sponsors were paying to allow me to play there - and two of them were members playing with me.  

I was horrified at the joining fees and annual memberships of the top new courses listed in one of the recent postings on this site.  $100,000 etc.  

Yes, there are people with that sort of disposable income, but the knock-on effect is so destructive.  It widens the gulf between affordable public provision and the top courses.  The courses in the middle become horribly polarised. At least we, in this country, can still play TOC, R St George's, Muirfield and the rest if we are prepared to pay a premium which does not seem to be exorbitant when set against Pebble Beach or Pinehurst.  And, at a price, we can play them and almost every course in the country as visitors, but we simply cannot play Pine Valley, Shinnecock Hills, Cypress Point or almost any other famous course in the US unless we are introduced by a member.  There are few of our gems barred to all but a very favoured few, but the American way of really private members' clubs locked away behind iron gates is frightening.  What has SFGC got to fear about people taking photographs?  Wouldn't you be proud of the place and want to share it with others?  

At heart I aspire to good things.  In that respect I am (in British political terms) a conservative.  But when the haves lock themselves away behind iron gates and do not share the best things in life with the have-nots who would appreciate, respect and honour those best things by pricing them out of it, I see it as utter selfishness.  At least in the arts we are prepared frequently to give our services freely for the benefit of those who otherwise could never experience the joy of music, drama, painting, poetry and so on.  We are often prepared to so.  We are often expected to do so.

No, I am not bitter.  I have been lucky enough to play most of our great courses at a time when it was possible to do so.  They were not over-priced in comparison with the cost of butter, bread, petrol or newspapers.  A round at Royal Lytham in 1968 cost only twice as much (£1.50 in modern money) as a round at my then home course, Lilleshall Hall (75p), one an Open Championship venue, the other a very ordinary country course of no pretension.  Some now are comparatively overpriced, and justify the cost by the number of tourists they attract and the standard of facilities laid on for corporate guests.  Unfortunately, the knock-on effect is that many who would like to visit Western Gailes or Kilmarnock Barassie are barred from doing so because well-heeled visitors to Turnberry are paying for bag-pipers to serenade them as they cross the threshold of the hotel and equally well-heeled visitors think nothing of paying in excess of £150 to play Royal Troon, only to find that one of their rounds must be over the Portland (a thoroughly decent course, but not £50 worth, let alone £75).  

Fair enough, but let's keep the visitors' fees at our hidden gems affordable so that I can at least play with our GCA visitors rather than having to beg to carry their bags!

Mark.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2003, 08:06:30 PM »
At heart I aspire to good things.  In that respect I am (in British political terms) a conservative.  But when the haves lock themselves away behind iron gates and do not share the best things in life with the have-nots who would appreciate, respect and honour those best things by pricing them out of it, I see it as utter selfishness.

Mark - Your comments are so meaningful... and obviously from the heart. I agree it is sad that most of the great American courses are locked behind iron gates or have priced themselves beyond the reach of the average golfer. The primary attraction for me of golf in Scotland was the opportunity to play world class venues for an affordable fee. I disagree with Huckaby that at these prices these courses still seem like bargains. When you factor in the travel costs a day of golf on a "big name" Scottish course costs at least $400... if you book the trip yourself and are careful with your non-golf spending. If you go through an agent it will be $600-$1000 per day. I can drive to Pinehurst or Kiawah Island and have a great golf experience for way less than half of that cost. And, if I time it right, I can fly to Oregon and partake of the Bandon Dunes experience for half of what it would cost for a comparable trip to Scotland. So, where's the bargain?

There are so many great courses being built in the USA that the uniqueness of Scotland will start losing its appeal at some point and travelers will begin to take a harder look at destinations closer to home.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

johnk

Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2003, 02:29:36 AM »
Wow.

Rottcodd, those are sobering numbers.  When I'm in the
UK in early May, I think I'm going to go on the sub 30 plan.  I've always loved playing gems like Braid Hills and Brora.

The upside to the inflation is that I can start to feel like
Jim Finegan with respect to price.  I can wistfully recall
paying less than $80 to play Royal St. Georges, or only parting with something under $120 for TOC.  N. Berwick was under $60. Way back in '99!

I don't agree that the Scottish courses can keep raising prices.  If you go for 10 days or more, it's just too expensive
to shell out $200 / round.  

Australia is the answer!

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2003, 06:19:48 AM »
And for those of you who want to find interesting, but affordable, golf on our shores, don't hesitate to E-mail me.  I am lucky enough to know (or know of) a large number of affordable gems.

THuckaby2

Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2003, 09:12:48 AM »
Brian G:  Yes, the UK thankfully does maintain the wonderful visitor policy that allows yokels like us to play great places like Muirfield, and we certainly don't have that over here.  It was the PRICES I was commenting on more than the policies.  And Mike W., "bargain" is relative.  The best courses available to me within 25 miles of my house cost a lot of money to play - $100-$175 - so any of those up to $200 still do seem like a relative bargain, considering what one gets.  And you better check those costs re Bandon, my friend.  Maybe mid-winter you still get a decent deal... but not outside of that!  :'(  In any case, my point was more that when Cinnabar Hills costs roughly the same as Royal Dornoch, well the latter remains a bargain.

Mark, I feel your pain.  I just always kinda figured this day would come... it's sad to read it in print, that's all.

TH


Michael Whitaker

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Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2003, 10:22:17 AM »
Huck - According to the Bandon Dunes website the following package is available in April:

$375.00 per guest: April, 2004 Sunday-Thursday

Two nights in a Lily Pond, Chrome Lake Single, or Chrome Lake Double room • Two rounds of golf per guest on either Bandon Dunes or Pacific Dunes • Two breakfasts per guest • One dinner per guest • Unlimited use of our 32-acre practice center

Now, if my math is correct that is $187.50 per day, including accommodations. Now, I know the weather is iffy in Oregon in April, but not any more so than Scotland. Looks like a pretty good deal to me, and a hell of a lot cheaper than a comparable excursion to, say, Turnbury.

All I'm saying is that the total cost of traveling to Scotland used to be a bargain and people flocked over there as a result. When prices started increasing in Scotland everyone discovered Ireland. Now that prices are increasing there as well I think a lot of Americans will start "discovering" some of the hidden gem destinations we have here... like New Mexico, for instance. How great was that!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

THuckaby2

Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2003, 10:25:41 AM »
Mike:

Concur.  But do that same package in July and make the comparison....

I don't disagree that the UK and Ireland greats have gotten way out of whack, price-wise, and oh yes, the bargain was a big reason why people used to go - especially me.  You don't want to know how little I paid for everything back in the mid 80s... and I'm sure those who went earlier than that make the prices I paid then look steep!

It also just pains me how much Bandon costs now, as compared to two years ago when I went there.  They too have priced themselves out of my existence, any time I'd really want to go up there anyway.

So you just used a painful example for me, that's all!

TH

Keith Durrant

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Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2003, 04:08:20 PM »
Per some of your comments, I just can't figure paying over $150 for a round of golf with the exception of the handful of legendary courses (e.g. TOC, Pebble).

My concern with planning a trip to Scotland is that even the open qualifying courses are pricey. This is not the case if you look at Conway, Wallasey, S&A, West Lancs etc.

I can understand a privately owned resort such as Turnberry being more commercially run, but dont the other UK clubs (as custodians of the game) have some kind of responsibility to keep the game affordable for visitors? I think in the case of TOC this is done (as TOC could probably charge twice as much), but Troon's requirement to stump up their "day fee" seems a little over the top.

Supply and demand must be dictating these prices. This thread initiates with there being increased supply in Scotland so maybe these costs will soon peak.

I live in MA and even the priciest public-access courses are only around $100.

I will be scanning these courses for the reduced "April" rate when they are a little more affordable !

Brian_Gracely

Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2003, 10:25:40 PM »
rottcodd,

It would be a nice belief to think the UK courses are looking out for the visitors as "custodians" of the game, but the reality is that they allow outside play to keep costs down for their members.  At least they let visitors onto their courses.

What would be responsible would be for the original clubs of the USGA or those of the current US Open "rota", the "keepers of the game", to allow some visitors to come and appreciate the roots of the game in America.  

Unfortunately the "trophy" aspect of many of these courses to visitors allows them to continue to charge the high fees.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2003, 10:26:57 PM by Brian_Gracely »

Brian_Ewen

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Re:Scottish Golf Course Glut
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2003, 02:32:49 AM »
Guys
Outwith the tourist haunts , I actually think there is a lot of value golfing in Scotland .

Nowadays me and my friends travel around Scotland much more than we used to , because of all the half price coupon systems on offer .

Take a look at http://www.greenfeesavers.co.uk for example .

Anybody could plan a decent golfing holiday full of affordable gems using this system . In the past you could only get these vouchers by sending away for them , nowadays they are sold in the club shops .

Brian

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