[redanman]

I don't necessarily want to dredge up old whipping boys for some, but the best and worst holes of the year got me thinking more and more about expectations and realizations.

What was disappointing about places that were let downs for you?  It is interesting to see how many people listed holes at PBGL® especially #17 (which always will stir up quite a fuss), I won't knock Pebble here, heck it's still one of the top 30 in the world, even with the most nit-pickey curmudgeon you can find, top 10 for damn near everyone, top 2 for 90%.  PBGL® has such a reputation, how the hell could it live up anymore? (Actually, NGLA, Shinnecock, ANGC usually and NGLA always seem to do so.) Personally if you do want to damn me it is a top 20 course for me, solidly. But that's not what this is about.

For me this year visiting Muirfield Village I was so let down by what a housing track, squeezed in and so maintenance dependent for "playability" as we have come to see that  course on TV, it surely had a lot to live up to and it fell way short for me. It even reminded me of how Castle Pines was (more so) a collection of holes. (Heck, Castle Pines is MUCH better in person visually as it is on TV, BTW).

Especially to be considered a "great" venue, sure it has its unique great holes especially #14, but it was actually kinda sad that it wasn't more than what it was.  (The Emporer's new clothes, and in spite of the fact that I really have had a soft spot for old Des over the years as the original Mayacoo Lakes was one of my faves in SoFL) It was not a deficient experience thing by any means, I could hang in that clubhouse for a week, hit balls until my back spasms, eat until I am almost sick!

But the architecture, nice solid modern course but really not anywhere as special as I had been led to believe (caveat:But not many I usually trust opinions of had played it).  I don't hate it as I love all courses, man I will play damn near ANYWHERE and have.

Anyone else ever have such a monumentally disappointing visit?  It was still a really neat set of holes, but a let down for my expectations.

Sorry if this qualifies as logorrhea.

[Norbert P]

Highlander Links (Steidl) in Wenatchee, (central) Washington.

  I brought this course up yesterday about potentially great golf but with mowing practices and some odd features and what I considered less than "well-conceived greens complexes" and limited acreage.
  I normally like to praise Small Town Golf and think that this is NOT a real stinker but my expectations were pretty high on heading out there to see another Bandon.  The bunkers were built by the same feller who did BD and they are very well designed but beautiful bunkers do not make a great course.

  It is a new course - I think about 1 1/2 years old so it's still developing.  

 Their website has some of the finest photos but they bely its realities.

  If you read their promo lit, you'd swear you were headed to nirvana but course conditioning and THICK and overwatered rough (not wispy as they claim).  
  Some flooded bunkers during the hot season.
  Cartpath fronts right of #2 green ! (I hit it - boing!)
  The 14th, a downhill roller is beautiful to look out upon but at the bottom of the hill it is a bog and just beyond that is a mini quonset hut berm to protect big hitters from reaching the green.  I don't begrudge the idea but the inartistic thoughtlessness of the item is appalling.  
 The swards are overwatered.
 Run-up slopes fronting greens are soft, chunky and grass too thick for linksy play.
 As of this past summer they were confused on how to mow the rough.  They want the beauty of the rough but the narrowed fairways and lost balls makes for frustration.
 It could use more acreage and from what I saw, it had the land available.
 
  I really hate to pick on the place because I think if they figure out some maintenance issues and change just a few features, I think they'd have a terrific course to be righteously proud of.    

  http://www.highlandergolfclub.com/frameset.htm

  Highlander  Designed by Steidl
COURSE SPECS: 6,466 yards, par 72.

SUMMER GREEN FEE: $49 M-Th, $54 F-S (non-resident rates).
   ! (Includes Cart - ugh) !

 Has anybody else played this course?  Would like to hear a more positve update than what I have presented.

Bottom line :  Beautiful course visually but playability not up to linksy standards.  Some beautiful bunkering.  
  7th hole is a beauty.  Great vistas. Wonderful winds and weather potentials.

 




 

[ddavid426]

Have played the Highlander.  Agree with all your comments.  With a few changes it could make a great double header with Desert Canyon down the road.  For now I would not recommend going out of your way, just play 36 at Desert Canyon.

[Cory Lewis]

Oak Hil East.  Played it two months after the PGA.  Extremelly disappointing.  The disappoinment probably comes from the fact that I'm a big Ross fan and it seems most of the Ross characteristics are gone.  

[BigEdSC]

Being a newby, I think here is a good place to start.

The course that let me down was Doonbeg.  I was excited about playing it, on hearing all of the accolades.  A friend of mine told me that I would be disappointed.  After the front nine, I thought that he didn't know what he was talking about.

It started on the 12th hole.  From about 200 yards, the "book" said that there was a bunker on the front right of the green.  I was quite surprised to see a "doughnut hole" bunker in the middle of the green, that was canted away from the player from the fairway.

The second was the blind tee shot from 13.  I don't mind them, in fact they have their place.  But when there is no line of play indicated, I don't think that it's good architecture.

The walk from 17 green to 18 tee was interesting, too, as discussed in other forums.

Hope that this isn't too long, but I figured that I had to explain on the why aspect.

[Joel_Stewart]

We have had this discussion at least twice in the last 2 years on GCA and I always go back to Mauna Kea on Hawaii.  I know Bob will disagree with me but to this day I can not understand how anyone thinks this is a top 100 course.

[cardyin7]

Pebble Beach!  We arrived at the Monterey Peninsula toward the end of a memory-filled, month-long western adventure that included more than 20 noted courses.  The first day, we played at The Preserve, way back in the hills outside Carmel, and were treated very graciously. (There may have been one other group on the course.)  As we drove past Pebble Beach at dusk, we noticed that the fairways were dirty brown.  It  dawned on us that the course had been aerified that very day, and the crew up sweeping up the plugs.  The next morning, we plunked down $1,780  to play ($380 green fee each; $65 caddy fee each; fortunately we saved $100 in cart fees because we were staying at the Inn at Spanish Bay.)  No discount for the course basically being under repair.  Standing in semi-darkness on the first tee, we were subjected to a lecture from the starter about expected pace of play.  He repeated it at least twice.  That's fine; that's his job.  What was not fine was the fellow standing on the third tee who started to repeat the spiel.  Since the group behind us was just approaching the second tee, a par 5, we thought it was a bit much.  The last time we ran into that was during the Japanese fire drill at the Old Course at St. Andrews where a fellow is positioned between the first green and the second tee waving and urging you to speed up.  I suggested the fellow should do everyone a favor and just disappear before it got nasty.  By this time, we were steaming and rushing through putts.  The plugged fairways had been soaked, and there was no roll whatever.  We had to stay on the cart
paths, which created a big delay.  Whatever one may say about Pebble Beach, I believe it is safe to say it was not meant to be played from the cart paths.
Our caddy was horrible.  Instead of a "forecaddy," we began  referring to him as an "aftcaddy," because all he did was jump on to the back of a cart and ride.  We concluded his only assignment was to attain management's goal of herding us around within the alloted time frame. The course was jammed.
We slogged along, generally unable to reach the greens in regulation.  Finally, we reached the 16th hole, one of my favorites because the setting for the green is so secluded and dangerous.  To my amazement, the green site has been denuded, and a big red truck was stationed left of the green where a crew was finishing up destroying every tree and bush in sight.  It just looks horrible!  I always wondered before what the fuss about 17 is all about.  From the air, it looks great.  From the tee, it would be hard to imagine a more nondescript hole--absolutely flat and no definition. It hasn't improved.  (I believe Peter Alliss is the only commentator who ever dissed the view from the tee on the 17th.)  We concluded the round within our allotted time limit and left immediately.  The rest of the visit there was sensational--Spyglass, Links at Spanish Bay and Cypress Point --particularly the latter, which is a unique meld of art and nature.  When we mentioned our experience at Pebble Beach to our caddy at Cypress Point, he sighed and said, "Isn't it a shame.  They took a wonderful place and made a whore out of it."
 

[Jonathan Cummings]

Reverse Redan-man?   Pebble is day in day out the most overrated great course there is.  Forgetting the architectural arguments you just can't ignore the marginal conditioning, the cost and speed of play at this icon.  Also, I had a great experience at Muirfield.  I agree that it is an upscale housing tract but I thought the course had wonderful variety and rhythm (particularly the inward half).  I love 2/3 shot option par 5s and Muirfield has a pair of good ones.

BigEdSC should get "The Best Newby Post of the Year Award".  Doonbeg is an abomination.

JC

[Steve Lapper]

So what is worse? Cardyin7's experience, or my last one at the vaunted Pebble Beach?

Four years ago we were the fourth foursome off the tee on a beautiful May morning with a "veteran" PB caddy. We too got the pace of play speech, but later we learned it wouldn't even matter. The 2nd group out was a "well-connected" Japanese foursome (supposedly related in some way to the past owner of the property). We later learned that the lowest handicap among them was a 28! (I normally have no gripe against those lesser players out there, but the starter's job is to discern the level of player and treat(watch) them accordingly).

No further "rangers" were encountered until the 6th tee, and by then the round was near 2 hours long. When we asked if our group as well as the group in front of us (who were obviously very piqued that the group ahead of them was 2 holes out of pace) could play through, we were told it was "impossible." We made the turn in 3 hrs. and were not happy in the least.  Our caddy was apologetic and desperately trying to entertain us. He could only do so much. A glorious morning had turned into a worry to whether we would catch our flight out!

We finished our round in 5.55hrs, explained to the starter that he ought to be incarcerated as the foreigner's caddy or spotter, quickly packed up and left. Each of my friends remarked that absent the opportunity to play the course at a time with complete immunity from such slovenly delay, not one of us would ever bother returning to pay so much to wait for so long!

Even today, I have so little desire to ever try to play there again. It is just a too great a risk of having a lousy experience vs. a great one. With my experience in mind, I always have a hard time thinking positively of PB. What a shame.

[ForkaB]

My vote goes to Ballyliffin (Glashedy).  The Old course was a true gem, and the new one (Glashedy) not only is one of the least linksy courses I have ever seen built over true linksland, they also had the gall to nick a hole or two from the Old course!

[DTaylor18]

So much of ones reaction to something is based on expecations, and I think Pebble is no different.  Expectations are always so high for this course, that it would be tough to truly exceed expectations.

Having played it in the last nine months, I had a great tiem and it probably was about what i expected.  It was a lot of fun and I hope to play it again.

Steve, I will say one thing that I have heard is different.  When i was there, there were signs ALL OVER the place that said 4:30.  They placed a huge emphasis on a 4 1/2 hour round and there were many marshals.  The marshals even spoke to our caddie once when we had a tough hole and fell a little bit behind.  From what I've heard and read, pace of play has improved significantly.

However, it's a catch 22, because people pay so much, they wnat to get their money's worth and savor the day.  Also, they don't want to be mistreated or repeatedly spoken to after spending all that money.  On the other hand, you pay so much to play there, you want a brisk hassle free day of golf.  It's a difficult balance.

One side story, my friend treated me to a round there as a wedding gift. We dropped our bags and shoes off early and went to grab breakfast.  When we went to get our stuff efore the orund, they had lost my friends shoes.  They were unapologetic and questioned us defensively, as if it had been our mistake.  They finally gave him an ugly pair of rentals that were two sizes too small.  It's lucky he played really well that dya because his feet were not happy!

[THuckaby2]

As perhaps the only proponent here of the thought that "golf experience" DOES matter more than the "architecture", I am forced to take the bad with the good and thus cannot dismiss these PB horror stories, as much as I'd like to.  

I will say this, though:  Mike S. makes a very good point - a lot is in the expectations.  For me, stories like these are so common that if and when I've played Pebble in recent years, I just expect that it's going to take somewhere between 5 and 6 hours, we're going to be treated like dirt, and such is life.  Then I go out and enjoy the golf course for what it is....

I know, that's VERY hard to do when one is playing it for perhaps his first and only time, and has plunked down $400 for the privilege.  One does expect more, and it sucks that these horror stories are so commonplace.

As a Pebble Beach-lover, I take solace though in the stories of GOOD experiences there - and they do exist - for example, my Dad and I once played in 3 hours, dawdling to make it take that long, basically the only group on the course after a horrid rain... man, it is hard to say anything BAD about Pebble after a round like that... I've heard other stories like this as well...

Hopefully cardyin and slapper get another chance, and get to play it in better circumstances.  It is one hell of a golf course, and the experience CAN be a good one... I am here to attest.

TH

[Steve Lapper]

Dan & Mike,

    You are both correct...it is so often about the expectations (aren't many/most things?). Yet it also and near always in my book, about the attitude given.

  Mike, you had a great time with little or no expectations. The course is indeed a GREAT one and rightfully belongs high on all kinds of lists. My expectations were considerable and the place simply failed to rise to even a remotely acceptable level let alone exceed them.

Dan, you felt the same even though the management's attitude concerning your friend's shoes was lousy. I have such a hard time paying gobs of hard-earned $$$$ and getting any kind of attitude that is less than at least professional. There is no acceptable reason for this kind of stupidity. There is just little excuse for this kind of thing. Interestingly, I believe, albeit anecdotally these days, that this is the norm for PB. That said, I just don't want to waste my time or $$$$ with that kind of experience.

   A good analogy is one of the top rated restaurants. You pay mucho  $$$, expect alot and don't want to be rushed, and want to have a good experience.

Should you have the right to take an early reservation and linger for 3.5 hours? Because the food is so good, does that give the mgmt. the right to exhibit lousy service or bad attitude? Does one have the right to impact or impair the meals of others there? To all of these, obviously the answer is no.

PB is just no longer my taste. I am much happier heading to Bandon or limiting myself to other CA. courses when I'm out on the West Coast.

[THuckaby2]

Slapper:

I can absolutely understand your ire, hell I'd likely feel that way to if i had the round you had there.

I am just here to say that good experiences CAN HAPPEN at Pebble.  Imagine playing the course with your favorite parter, no one in front, no one behind, beautiful day, conditions great... as I did one time  Would your ire still exist then?

(yes, I like the word "ire").  

First time I played it, it took us 6.5 hours and we were irate (we had a lot of ire).  Man that was a waste of $55 each too (it was 1976).  Luckily I did get to play it again many times in the subsequent years....

TH

[Steve Lapper]

Slapper:

I can absolutely understand your ire, hell I'd likely feel that way to if i had the round you had there.

I am just here to say that good experiences CAN HAPPEN at Pebble.  Imagine playing the course with your favorite parter, no one in front, no one behind, beautiful day, conditions great... as I did one time  Would your ire still exist then?

(yes, I like the word "ire").  

First time I played it, it took us 6.5 hours and we were irate (we had a lot of ire).  Man that was a waste of $55 each too (it was 1976).  Luckily I did get to play it again many times in the subsequent years....

TH

Tom,


    Thanks for the understanding. I do know someone could have a great experience there. It is an awesome course and of course if conditions permitted as you described them, I would have to be a total dunce to have any remaining "ire." (it's a good simple word ). Yet I am concerned that too often it just comes up short and I still understand that mgmt. hasn't figured out high-end customer service just yet.

   You are lucky that first lousy experience was only $55...mine was north of $250. All in all, I'd still rather play Bayonet or grovel for the gem.

Steve

[Dan Grossman]

I was most disappointed by Royal Birkdale this year.  It was very bland compared to the other courses that we played in England and Scotland.  The fairways don't give you the interesting lies that the other English links courses afford and I thought that the bunkers didn't dictate or affect play as much as they should.  I got bored   out there.  I was expecting much more from a well-regarded British Open site.

(on the flip side, Royal Lytham was my biggest surprise of the year and much exceeded expectations)

[cardyin7]

I have played Pebble Beach many times in the past, on one occasion every day for a week in heavenly, calm weather.  I have appreciated its architectural concepts--a course designed from the greens back with its strategy dictated by the size and shape of the greens and the placement of greenside bunkers.  That design concept made even the more pedestrian holes interesting.  I have experienced the joy of
rimming the cup  on a long second shot over the ocean on the 8th and hugging the right side of the fairways on the 9th and 10th and flying mid-iron shots onto the greens. It's not that I don't appreciate Pebble Beach.
People say, "I absolutely would not pay X amount to play that course..." Then, onsite, people are pounding on the golf shop door at 3 p.m. begging for access to the course, no matter what the price, because of the allure of the place.   However, the last time we visited (before this time), the crew consistently wouldn't get out of the way long enough for us to hit our shots, including shots into the greens, and that was really irritating.  So, I can't say we were overburdened with great expectations this time.
This subject is "courses that let us down," and this most recent experience at Pebble Beach is "Exhibit A" for that proposition.

[Norbert P]

 "Let the record show... Letdown courses henceforth to be called 'Buttercups'.  Motion carried."  BANG!  (gavel sound)

                                                           

[Mike Hendren]

I remain amused by the bashing that Pebble Beach receives.  Question:  What if PB was private and CPC was public?  Would the shoe indeed be on the other foot?  

Me thinks it is the consumer that is to blame.  My quick match-play does give CPC a one-up victory, however.

Regards,

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Hendren,

I think you hit the nail on the head.
Who gave you that idea ?  

Pebble Beach is a fantastic golf course.

If others would remove the pricing mechanism and view it solely in an architectural and playability perspective, it has to be one of the great courses in the world.

Those that don't recognize its A&G values are focused on the wrong issues.

[Rick]

Three horrible experiences!

I won't bother with my Pebble story... suffice to say it was similar in ilk to those already recounted earlier.

The worst was at the K-Club. Arriving early for our 3:00 tee time, the treatment in checking in was not cordial and quite unlike any experience I've ever had in Ireland. When we approached the first tee at the allotted time, there were no less the 8 groups queueing up, a group of 16, another of 12 and us, all with chits claiming the 3:00 time. We were last out at 4:20.

As non-members, we were obliged to play the "green tees" in front of the "reds". I reckon it played to about 5500 yards. Pace, naturally, was beyond slow and we finished in the gloaming at 9:30 playing in rain for the last three hours of this ordeal. We were forbidden to enter the clubhouse to dry up and our car was parked in the visitor's lot about a kilometer away. It took 15 minutes to get someone to cart us there. Staying in Portmarnock, I muttered the entire hour and a half drive home that I would relate this story at every opportunity to steer people away from this insult to the golf world.

Almost as bad was our experience at Royal Melbourne. We had an 8:00 time and the Pro eagerly accepted our $560.00AUS green fee and directed us to start on the little par three 7th hole of the West Course. I found this unusual since there was noone else there and at the fee, one would have thought that the courtesy of starting at #1 would be automatically extended. In any event, we played along and of course, at that time of the day, the greens crew was out in full force. So from 7 through 18, we were obliged to play through a gang of maintenance people on every hole on that course that was part of the Composite course. They were preparing it for the Heinneken Tournament being played there in two weeks. The ninth hole (not part of the Composite course obviously) was being ripped up... there was not a blade of grass on the entire length of the fairway! Finally, they were applying herbicide on all the fairways that day as well and we were obliged to endure the stench of the chemical the entire day. At least we were able to blitz the course in about 3:15 hours, the only positive to the experience. What was certainly expected to be the highlight of our Aussie tour turned into a nightmare. In our travels, we met several people who were members at other sandbelt courses and they were not the slightest bit surprised at our treatment. Apparently, this course is notorious for their abuse of guests! At least the 12 holes of the Composite course were in superb condition. Nevertheless, should I ever return to Melbourne, RM won't be on our agenda again!

[Patrick_Mucci]

redanman,

I forgot, what was the title of your thread ?
Was it:

Courses that let you down

Or experiences that let you down ?

Doesn't anybody read with comprehension ?  [/b]

Could you clarify it so that others won't be confused.

Thanks.

[Mike Hendren]

Patrick,

You and I agree on PB and ANGC.  I can only draw one conclusion:  Tom Paul is wrong about everything

Kindest regards,

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

You and I agree about Pebble Beach.  I can draw only one conclusion:


[glow=color,glow width, #characters wide]Hell has frozen over.  [/glow]


Warmest regards,

Tom

[Mike Hendren]

Never underestimate the value of a public school education.  As an undergrad at the University of Tennessee I took a course in logic.  I recall the following example:

Some dogs are black.
My dog is black.
Therefore, my dog is some dog!

Therefore:

I agree with Patrick Mucci.
Tom Huckaby agrees with Patrick Mucci.
Therefore, I AGREE WITH TOM HUCKABY!

Sweet

Mike

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