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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Restorations - A search for the Holy Grail ?
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2003, 08:24:08 PM »
Tom:

You said:

>It was the memberhip side of the process (contributors there really are two distinct sides to a restoration project--first the architectural plan and second taking the plan through the membership to approval and then implimentation) that we weren't very clear on and that's the part where we made some initial mistakes.


This got me to thinking.  How'd you like to write up a piece about this topic with me - and maybe we can talk Paul Daley into putting it into his Golf Architecure III book?

 ??? ;) :)
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Restorations - A search for the Holy Grail ?
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2003, 08:26:01 PM »
Ian:

As a recent proud father and also one of the "proud uncles" to the Beverly restoration project, I have accumulated hundreds of photos to be put into a book for the Beverly membership to enjoy of the restoration as it has progressed.

Unfortunately, I don't have a CLUE how to get these snapshots onto the website .......


 :-[ :-[ :-[ :'(
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

TEPaul

Re:Restorations - A search for the Holy Grail ?
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2003, 11:25:40 PM »
Paul Richards said:

"This got me to thinking.  How'd you like to write up a piece about this topic with me - and maybe we can talk Paul Daley into putting it into his Golf Architecure III book?"

Paul:

You bet I would. I've been on here a long time and I feel there're a lot of contributors on here who know architecture, some really well and who with a good restoration architect probably have a pretty good feel for how to put together a good plan for a restoration project but when it comes to understanding the dynamics of a membership or what it takes to get a good plan through a membership they're weak--probably really weak.

Frankly, I think this very thing is one of the aspects of Golfclubatlas.com that holds it back from having a much larger impact on clubs!


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Restorations - A search for the Holy Grail ?
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2003, 10:31:29 AM »
redanman,

When trying to evaluate and determine the high water mark or optimum optimization date, one must view the entire film, and not just some random frames, and therein lies the problem with trying to select an ideal date.

ian

Re:Restorations - A search for the Holy Grail ?
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2003, 10:51:23 AM »
I'm very interested to learn about both Tom and Paul's experiences on why restoration (while obvious to me, its not to a membership) and how that was accomplished. Unless I'm dense (quite likely), it seems that both clubs ended up in the same place through different routes.

My two most recent experiences are:

Scranton-they have a very trusted member Ward Fitzpatrick who felt that it was time to recapture some of the lost heritage at the club. The greens committee made the decision to get a great superintendent Greg Armstrong to improve the golf course. They sought an architect to work with Greg who knew Travis. They knew what they wanted, the only real decision they're facing now is "all the way" or "almost all the way" Its small details like seeing sand and fescue covering the mounds, not locations or strategic intent.

St. George'-the driving force is the superintendent John Gall who has accumulated all the historical evidence and has spent years steering them to a restoration of Thompson's work. He has been slowly restoring green sizes and some bunkers over the past dozen years. The club was well aware of what they have and wanted to improve the quality of what was current. John's push, with our assistance, helped explain why they should go back where possible. We did a historical photo/existing photo/after photo presentation for all 18 holes. The greens committee were fully on side and decided that the members needed to see this. We presented to the membership and had very few dissenters when they understood both the look the goal.

In both cases the club's had made the decision, but both were well aware of their history. Clubs in this recent 10 years are much more aware than the 80's and before.

I would say the majority of the clubs I work with are looking for a "bunker job" or a masterplan to improve the course. There is no history involved in this decision. I dig up their history because that interests me (like many others on the site), and show them what they used to have. I always thought that was step one in an older layout. It's rare that a greens committee is not enthused by the idea of capturing some or all of their lost past. When presented with evidence of the past, most are often very enthused about recapturing their history. From my end promoting a restoration or a sypathetic renovation is really quite easy because its often what they want without knowing it.

The real ugly problem comes when you are faced with the tough situation where you have something that you really like that the committee wants to go. My own personal technique on this is to find a way to delay the decision as long as possible (for a new committee obviously). I wonder how Tom or Paul dealt with someone who did not want to restore and couldn't care about Donald Ross.

Tom and Paul,

What did you two do when you were faced with that situation on a committee level?

Patrick,

How are you dealing with the obvious split to do with pond? Are you putting of the decision, continuing to debate, or are opposing committee members disappearing as we speak ;D ?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2003, 10:53:12 AM by Ian Andrew »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Restorations - A search for the Holy Grail ?
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2003, 11:13:12 AM »
Ian,

I'm dealing with it by recognizing that nothing will happen to the golf course in the year 2004, and that it's doubtful that anything will happen in 2005 as well.

The dynamic is totally lacking in the leadership and architect.

Nothing is going to happen.
Sad, in that no restoration work will take place.
Happy, that the course won't get screwed up more.

TEPaul

Re:Restorations - A search for the Holy Grail ?
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2003, 02:18:21 PM »
redanman said:

"Certainly if optimal optimization is indeed a holy grail,...."

redanman;

"Optimization of options" is one thing but when you start saying things like "optimal optimization" you really are careening off the track!

"Optimal optimization" is just about as redundant as one can get! And this from the same person who actually thinks he could be an editor for any of us?   ;)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2003, 02:19:22 PM by TEPaul »

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