[Mike Hendren]

Not that the hole was poor, but rather than it failed to live up to expectations or praise or critical acclaim.

I'll go first.  Ready. Aim. - The 11th at Pasatiempo.  I thought the 2nd, 10th, 14th and 16th were better two shotters.  If Mackenzie had tabbed any of those as his favorite, the 11th would garner scarcely a mention in my opinion.  FIRE!

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Ouch.  The pain.  This hurts.  

So you didn't dig #11, eh?  I can definitely live with anyone saying 2, 10, 14 and 16 are better two shotters... that's also arguable but those are all great golf holes... But disappointed by 11?  Was the disappointment because it didn't stand up to these others, or was it disappointment in general?  Please tell me it's not the latter... because when I pull into that parking lot, the holes I am looking forward to playing kinda go in this order:

11-16-everything else.  Maybe it's the challenge involved, in that I don't think I've ever made a three on either of them (and this is a reason I hate/despise/envy JakaB, who did so on 11 on his very first try, the smooth-swinging bastard.)

 

As for me, fortunately I had no disappointment, even throughout Scotland.  OK, maybe THE REDAN at NB West links continues to disappoint, only because the one at NGLA to me is so clearly better than the original... but I had seen it before, so my disappointment didn't occur this year.

TH

[THuckaby2]

As is usually the case, I concur with my partner/idol shivas.  I value 11 for exactly those reasons, on top of my crusade to make a 3.  And my reasons for looking forward to 16 are more because it's such a hard hole for me to play (hook is required, tough for fader me), and the hole is so famous.  Taken outside of that, I think 16 is a damn fine hole, but I've never gotten why it was Mackenzie's fave and received all the acclaim... why not 11 or 14 or 2 or 10?

That being said, I never find any disappointment at Pasa period, that is unless they have the greens speeded up and it's an infinite putting day.  

[Mike Benham]

I can understand Mike's disappointment.

If we review the proceeding 10 holes at Pasa, 11 doesn't fit into the style.  The fairway and green are unlike any other on the course, in fact, I could make the argument that it looks like the hole was rerouted when the club sold the property at the end of the fairway, probably during the mid-60s    

[Brian_Gracely]

#15 & 16 at Cypress Point.  Car was parked along 17 Mile Drive, club and a few balls in hand, started the trek up the hill and then, "Private Property, Trespassers will be Prosecuted".  

Oh small green sign...why do you taunt me so!?!?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Mike H,

#11 at Pasa was not MacKenzie's favorite, #16 was.  And I agree with Shivas, I think #16 is overrated, although I didn't play it this year.  That same 3-tier green complex, seen on any number of Graves or Robinson designs would get slammed.

[Mike Hendren]

Huckster.

I thought about North Berwick's Redan.  The greatness of this hole lies in its egnigmatic nature.  How many of us (certainly me) played right by it going out and never even knew it was there?  Have you ever seen a good photograph of NB's Redan?   Are CB's and Seth's copycats "better" just because they're visually more appealing?  They're imminently more photogenic.

I know how to approach CB's and Seth's watered-down versions, but I struggled to pick a line at NB's.  A pull-hook with a 4-iron is not the answer - I can testify.  

Regards,

Mike
Contrarian For A Day

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

So is uncertainty about how to play a hole the be all and end all determiner of greatness?  It's one factor me, just not the ONLY factor.

I too don't know the best way to play THE REDAN at NB, but I also know that it's not as much fun to play then other Redans because it's blind, and because that second mound/ridge short of the green prevents the fun running shot we all really want to play.  At NGLA, the running shot is very possible, plus one can see the results, which on a great hole like this to me is more fun (ie, this isn't a comment on blindness in general, I dig that - just not on a hole where seeing the run is part of the fun).

TH

ps - damn right I looked at it walking by, both times... in fact delaying my partners both times as I dilly-dallied staring at it.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

17th @ Pebble

I am thinking that it was much more downhill, and that the bunkers would visually terrorize the golfer. With a right front pin placement, they did not. It has been suggested here before that we should have played to a back left imaginary pin, but I am not that hard core ! It seems like they should raise the tee a few feet IMHO.

[THuckaby2]

Of course it might be in general, but seeing it played y a certain someone slipping into the famed yellow cardigan JUST to play THIS hole might make it the #1 fave of any year....

I too find the hole to be kinda disappointing, though I too have not played it in 2003. Given the history and lore, you just expect a little more.  It's a tough hole, it is just very flat and you always seem to be playing it into the sun...

TH

[ForkaB]

15 at Cruden Bay.  The only thing that hole has going for it is the neato Rube Goldberg-style bell-ringer........

Mike B

That's an interesting thought about 11 at Pasa.  If the green was straight ahead and back, that would make 12 a great dog leg left, maybe even a par 4 1/2, wouldn't it?  Anybody know if this is fact or just dreaming?

[Mike Hendren]

Mike:

So is uncertainty about how to play a hole the be all and end all determiner of greatness?  It's one factor me, just not the ONLY factor.

I too don't know the best way to play THE REDAN at NB, but I also know that it's not as much fun to play then other Redans because it's blind, and because that second mound/ridge short of the green prevents the fun running shot we all really want to play.  

Thomas,  

Uncertainty is a heckuva lot better criteria (criterium?) than fun

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Interesting thought, Rich, but wouldn't the net result still be negative?  Sure 12 would become one hell of a hole, but you'd also have to make 11 fairway OB lest all players risk life and limb coming up 11 (and god I hate in-course OB), as the natural shot would be just going back down 11 fairway from a tee on that side of the hazard... AND they'd have to make 11 one heck of a fantastic green to avoid the boredom in a straight up hill, nothing to it hole, as would likely be the result....

I do like these IFs, even though every time you postulate one what's there now seems to be better than what is imagined.  

I brace for the comeback....  

TH

[Dan_Callahan]

Although I had seen it before, I was once again impressed by the sheer suckiness of the 18th at Yale. I know there are some people out there who love this hole, so I've thought that perhaps it is an acquired taste. Unfortunately, it always hits me as a rather half-assed attempt at getting the golfer back to the clubhouse. On a course that ranks as one of my all-time favorites, this has got to be one of the worst finishing holes I've ever seen. Someone who had never played the course before would have no idea what they were looking at from the tee. Please, anybody, sneek onto the course at night with a backhoe and level that god-awful mound that creates a blind second shot. Of course, I've never played the hole well, so that might be influencing my opinion, but it is such a downer after an otherwise spectacular layout.

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

Wow, you are the contrarian today.  But the contrarian of all contrarians has arrived, so don't expect to hold the title very long.  

To me FUN is absolutely a better criterion than uncertainty.  It's why one plays the game - to have fun.  Of course uncertainty becomes part of the fun, for me anyway.... But only part of it, not ALL of it.

We may get into some really persnickety hair splitting here if we're not careful.  

TH

[THuckaby2]

shivas:  that is such a great story, I have often wondered how we could get it on here, in the right context.  This is a happy day!  

I thought of another disappointing reknowned hole I saw this year:  postage stamp at Troon.  Oh, it's a wee beastie of a hole, especially with the wind howling at it was this summer for me...The green is just not THAT small... As much as I was impressed and enlightened by the rest of that course, I was disappointed by seeing postage stamp again.  Perhaps expectations have a lot to do with this?  I had built it up in my mind as the greatest short par 3 on earth...

TH

[Bill_McBride]

Here's the way you play # 11 at Pasatiempo, just like Bobby Jones did on opening day:  hammer a strongly drawn driver over the trees into the middle of the 12th fairway and then hit a straight pitch into the green.  

Of course the trees were nonexistant at the time, or at least nothing like those towering dudes today!

This from the stuff on the wall in the clubhouse at Pasa.

[CHrisB]

Don't know if this hole is "renowned" or not, but I've read a lot of discussion in this DG about #12 at Rustic Canyon, and so I was looking forward to playing the hole. While it is a good hole, I must say that I was a little disappointed by it, although I liked the green complex. Just a little too dull off the tee, in my opinion (which also could be said for several other holes at RC).

I liked holes 2,3,6-8, and 13-17 more than 12.

[Rick Shefchik]

I concur about both #16 at Pasatiempo and #17 at Pebble. Saw both for the first time this year, was uninspired by #17 and just generally irked by #16 at Pasa.

I wonder if lowering the tee at #17 would make it a more interesting hole, though it would obviously require moving a lot more earth than raising it. But aside from not providing a decent look at the green, the tee at #17 seems like it's in the middle of Times Square. You're right next to the driveway to the Beach Club (where a catered luncheon was just convening as we prepared to tee off), and there are walkers, joggers, dogs and kibbitzers coming out of the woodwork as you prepare to hit your shot. I expect Bill Murray to appear and pull my wife into a bunker. About the only thing that doesn't divert your attention is the ocean, which is not really in evidence for an ocean-side hole.

Great green, though, once you get there.

As for #16 at Pasa, it seems like a fairly good hole made borderline ridiculous by the amusement park green.

 

[peter_p]

#1 at Machrihanish the first time you play it. All that room to the right and the green within reach with a bail out , even for a medium length hitter without warmups.

Once you get ranged in; however,

[Bruce Katona]

Dan Callahan: I had the pleasure of playing Yale twice this year with a longtime member.  I didn't like #18 the first time; it was getting dark, i couldn't see a blessed thing, etc.

 The second time, I did not hit a driver ( 3 wood) to the base of the hill or on to the first plateau; 3 wood to 150 and a 7  iron from a downhill,sidehill lie to the middle of the green, 2 putts for par.  I would have never plyed the hole this way if my host hadn't told me to play it this way.  I'm not totally crazy abot a semi-blind (Hill on right) tee shot a completely blind second, but it a really exciting way to finish.

[Sandman]

I have to agree with Mike........the 17th hole at Peeble is not up to par.  It was a let down and even lessend the entire experience for me.  I guess that I was expecting more........you know, what with all the hype (the high expense of the green fee) and the history.

[A_Clay_Man]

All those jumping on the bandwagon of the 17th @ PB whoa!

Perhaps this is a fine example where repetitive play is needed for a comprehensive evaluation?

I'd agree that the front right pin is less "nitty gritty" than anything left, but you can probably blame the powers that be for that. I don't know it as fact but it seems like something they would do to pick up the pace. But even so the right front pin is no slouch. Just think Shivas, you'd never be in that pot bunker long. A pot bunker that would serve your purposes quite well on #15. The bunkering on this hole is all Pebble and is to be marvelled at it's genius, plus that green is quite unique.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

I agree, anyone knocking the 17th at Pebble Beach has had too much of the spiked egg nog.

It is a wonderful golf hole, great green, great surroundings, wind, it's location in the routing and play of the golf course.

Someone, please, anyone, flag those guys, no more egg nog  

Some people have to see a hole dozens of time in order to recognize the value of its architecture and playability.

Take TEPaul for instance.
Just to give you an idea of his inability to recognize greatness,
let me cite this example.

I took him duck hunting last fall.
I told TE that my dog was the best retriever in the east, maybe even the world.
As some ducks flew over we fired, hitting one.
After the duck splashed down,
I gave my dog the whistle command signal to retrieve.
The dog WALKED ON THE WATER and retrieved the duck.
When the dog came back to the blind with the duck,
TE looked and me and said,
"If you think your dog is a great retriever, you're wrong,
that damn dog can't even swim"

Some people just don't get it, the first time or the hundreth time.

B Katona,

Did you play # 18 at Yale from all the way back ?
From the tee up on the hill in the woods ?
The tee from which you can try to bite of the right side slope and need to crank it ?

[cary lichtenstein]

I love the 17th at Pebble Beach, ditto with Nicole Kidman, Cameron Diaz, and Tiger Wood's Elin. Maybe I'm just a romantic at heart.

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