[TEPaul]

Here's a hole that basically has a REQUIRED ground game approach to the green in all but soft conditions.

Gil Hanse's par 5 15th at Inniscrone! Under normal conditions even if you landed a SW on the front of that green it would very likely get all the way to the back of that quite long green if not off the back of it.

[TEPaul]

Here are two very good downhill ground game long par 3s! I think it's the 10th or 11th at an early Flynn course called Eaglesmere and also the 10th or 11th at Gullane #2. At both it looks like in firmer conditions you'd almost have to land the ball before the green to hold it on the green.

[Thomas_Brown]

Hi Rich - I was pondering #4 at Dornoch, but I recall a catch bunker near the green - My memory is a bit foggy there.

I agree w/ you on your Foxy stats - GIR is < 10%.
What's worse is how hard the chip shot is after you miss.
I remember playing it at the top of my short game prowess in 1990.  I had chipped in or hit the pin probably 5 times in one week of 36/day in Scotland.  I get to Dornoch and struggle to get it within 20 feet on that hole from 25 yards away the few times I played it.  I never hit that green in 3 rounds.  I can't imagine any architect proposing that design in today's climate.

[ForkaB]

Tom

4 is bunkered fromt right and left, but there is a 20-25 yard opening in between.  Also, they both really do not affect the aerial shot, but do the ground game--particularly the left hand ones, as the ground approach must favor the left to counter the left to right slope of the fairway and green.

PS--Both Doak (Pacific Dunes 15?) and Hanse (Applebrook 7?) have done their paeans to the 14th green.  The latter is a bit more effective in recreating the experience, IMHO.

[Bruce Katona]

How about two of the classic redan par 3's here on the East Coast: # 2 at Somerset Hills and #13 at Yale.  The ground game is quite a bit of  the strategy of the redan.

I also vote for # 9 and #15 at Twisted Dune.  Archie designed those holes to receive a ball running down and across the slope.

[Doug Wright]

I was looking for something using the Search feature and came across this thread from December 2003. Thought I'd bring it back up since there are a number of new participants on here...

About any downhill hole at Kapalua Plantation gets my vote.

[Kyle Harris]

3, 7, 17 at Huntingdon Valley

6th on PSU White (A GREAT ground game hole, IMO)

Approach to 12 at Bethpage Black

[Scott_Burroughs]

I'll add Kapalua (Plantation) as well.  What a fun course to play that is.  Aiming approaches 15-20 yards left or right of the target and letting the slopes bring it back was terrific.

[wsmorrison]

5 at Merion East best among several
7 at Rolling Green (especially when they take the trees down and put in the MorrPaul bunker)

[JESII]

I'll admit to some homerism as well.

#6 and #15 at Huntingdon Valley
#15 is 575 level or even very slightly uphill and can be reached fairly easily by medium-long players. A pretty amazing phenomenon really.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,
   I'm sure you know the M/P bunker will emasculate the ground game on #7 RG. Why are you tweaking me?

[Ted Kramer]

#4, Pac Dunes.

-Ted

[Sam Sikes]

13 at kinloch when its firm.  A par 5 where a 3 wood of long iron that is on the proper line will chase all the way on to the surface if its within 70 yards of the green.  Also #4 where a driver that is placed perfectly will chase onto the surface.

Not necessarily ground game shots, but use of the ground nonetheless.

Also, there are a ton of holes at Rockaway Hunt that favor the ground game.  1,4,7,8,9

[Gene Greco]

Agree with you Ed.

 #8 at Sand Hills immediately came to mind because it is the only hole you can play the ground game with every club in your bag!!!!!

The rolls you get from every angle of attack staring at the tee are truly mesmerizing.

[wsmorrison]

"Wayne,
  I'm sure you know the M/P bunker will emasculate the ground game on #7 RG. Why are you tweaking me? "

Mike,

You miss the strategy once again.  It isn't about tweaking you.  Looks like I'll just have to walk you out there and explain it, won't I?

First of all, even with all the stupid trees on the hole there are some great ground game options, especially short left.  But with trees out and the bunker in it gets even better.

Until I show you firsthand and then knock some sense into you, consider:

Longer players from the right and middle will have to carry the MorrPaul bunker and run the ball along the ground the last 35 yards, or isn't that enough of a run for you as a ground game option?  The pin position would dictate the line over the bunker.  Short shots into the bunker will cause havoc with the next shot.  Shots that stray right will stay there and leave a delicate downhill chip to a green sloping away.

From the left, longer players can hit it precisely in the gap along the ground but would have to flirt with the bunker and the right of the green to a right pin position.

Depending upon the pin position, shorter players with their 3rd approach from the left can run the ball in the gap or fly it onto the green.  From the middle or right, the shorter players will carry the bunker and roll it onto the green.

This bunker would be great if the trees came out on the right side of the first fairway and leave something to think about trying to go for it or lay up and have a demanding approach with the evergreens out along the right side of the second fairway.

All good for a short par 5 preceding a difficult stretch of 3 holes.  Why are you so dense?

[George Pazin]

Some modern ones:

Many of the holes at The Rawls Course, but specifically 1 & 7.

#s 10 & 13 at Black Mesa.

#s 7 & 8 at Paa Ko Ridge.

#s 12 and 18 at Birdsfoot. #8 probably is, too.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

Preach it, brother.

[Steve Sayers]

# 8 at LuLu when firm

[Doug Wright]

#4, Pac Dunes.

Good call Ted--the play around the green is terrific. Although it obviously is aerial until the green surrounds, the Redan #17 at Pacific Dunes is a lot of fun too...  

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie Struthers,

The approach to # 10 is equally blind and thus you're deprived of seeing the results, which is what you prefer.

On # 8 you are not blind if you're left, right or long enough.

On # 10 you are blind no matter where you are.

[wsmorrison]

"Wayne,

Preach it, brother. "

Kyle,

You are a believer!  Malone is too dense for me.  Maybe a big guy like you can knock some sense into him.  He's a dense Delaware County lad, though.  

I'm glad you are a believer in the MorrPaul bunker!  I knew you were sharp.  You're smart, young and learn readily.  Malone is an old dog and you can't teach him anything even though he has so much to learn  

Can I get an amen?  

[wsmorrison]

Steve,

I hope Tommy N sees that photo!
 
Haven't spoken with you in a bit.  When the snow finally gets out of here, let's get together.  Hope all is well.  Lots to chat about!
Best,
Wayne

[Sam Sikes]

Don't forget about 17 at sawgrass

[peter_p]

#4 at Bandon Dunes. I use a 4 iron pitch from 150 and let the ground gather the ball to the green.

[mike_malone]

Wayne,
   I am dense because I am Irish! You make a good case. Certainly it is not a bad idea; I just am not there yet.

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