Pine Valley & Fazio

[bakerg]

I was just looking at GolfWorld's website and under the contents for next week's magazine there was this:


News from the Bunker: Golf World's annual contenders: Annika ... Fazio to renovate Pine Valley ... Johnny Bulla, 1914-2003 ... Front 9: 2003 edition


Has anyone heard anything about this?  I assume they are going to make it longer.......

[david h. carroll]

I'm trying to think of where they'd make it longer...no room at 1, 2, maybe 3, maybe 4, no 5, no 6, yes 7, please don't change 8, maybe 9?, no 10, 11?, don't change 12, maybe 13, maybe 14, no 15, maybe 16, but I think the further back you go, the more elevated it is thereby negating distance, maybe 17 and no room at 18

[Michael Dugger]

Are you guys sure they aren't referring to something other than THE Pine Valley.  Didn't Fazio build a short course there, or something like Pine Valley Country Club or sumthinanother?

[SPDB]

If he is, it wouldn't surprise me. Anybody who's played the short course can't doubt that he's the right person for the job (again, if its true).

Fazio has a pretty regrettable record in most cases (Riv, OH, Inver.) but if he's working PV, I don't see any cause for worry.
1. He's a member
2. Ransome wouldnt let him screw around.

[Steve Lapper]

Second that SPDB last comment:

Though Ernie is no longer the full-time keeper/czar, the resident powers that be will not permit the Faz to do anything stupid or dramatic to the course. No silly tinkering is likely to take place, unless its on the short course (let Faz tinker there all he wants).....these boys don't like screwing around with poor reason.

Thank Heaven

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Unfortunately, I have heard it is the big course and they are not restoration projects, but instead, efforts to keep the course up to date with today's game.

[Rick Shefchik]

If that's the case, is not all lost?

What membership in America would be more appreciative of what they have, and less concerned about whether or not they have become "obsolete" in relation to the pro game, than the membership of Pine Valley?

[Pete Lavallee]

Have pro's already gone so low there that it's necessary or would this be a preemmtive move?

[Patrick_Mucci]

bakerg,

I think that Geoff is correct and hickorygolf off target.

[Brian_Gracely]

rumor has it that many of the waste areas in front of the tees are being filled in with grass to allow more of a ground game.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian Gracely,

Not happening.

You may be confusing golf courses.

Try Pine Hollow.

[Brian_Gracely]

oops...I must have been confusing them with the croquet fields at Pine_hurst.  They have been emplying the ground game for years, but unfortunately they have no additional room for expansion.

[Steve Lapper]

Pat, Tom,

   What do you think Faz will propose? Lengthening a few tee's? Dcaroll well summarized most of those avaialbe (although I've always thought they want to drag back 8 and 12...not my idea). What do you think might be done?

[Jimmy Muratt]

What possible reasoning could justify making drastic changes to Pine Valley?  No professional tournaments are held there and even in the their one significant amateur even, the Crump Cup, no one goes out and goes low on the course.  

I guess we should all hold back our comments until we really know what's going to happen.  It seems like the members know what they have and hopefully will not do anything drastic.  However, Tom Fazio is a member and has been known to have a knack for drastically altering some of our classics (Oak Hill, Augusta Nat'l).  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Joe Logan of the Philadelphia Inquirer has interviewed the head pro at PV and will have a story about the course changes in his Sunday column.

Steve

[Patrick_Mucci]

Slapper,

Added tee length wouldn't bother me as much as other changes.

But, the question is, irrespective of the changes, why should Fazio be the focus or lightning rod of dissent ?

Isn't the club, and the club alone, responsible for anything that happens to the golf course

[TEPaul]

"Isn't the club, and the club alone, responsible for anything that happens to the golf course?"

Fellow Golfclubatlasites:

On how many threads and how many times have we had this very same question from Pat Mucci? This time lets do each other a favor and just let Pat Mucci come up with the answer on his own in the quiet and comfort of his own home? OK?

Thank you, thank you very much.

[Brian_Ewen]

Am I wrong in saying that Pine Valley has already had Tom Fazios hands on it ? . I was under the impression he built a new green for the eighth .

BE

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian Ewen,

That is techically incorrect, he built an alternate green on # 8 and didn't touch the existing green to the left.

# 8 and # 9 now have two greens to play to.

TEPaul,

Why do you seek to shift the burden of responsibility ?
How does any vendor become responsible for a property that they don't own ?  

By what authority can they override the wishes and commands of the owners, or those in power ?
They can't.

Only the owners, the club itself, has the ultimate power to change their golf course, and the burden of responsibility for those changes.

Stop looking to  pass the buck and blame someone else.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

In my opiinion, which is worthless, Fazio's previous work at Pine Valley had been terrific.

I cited that many times during the Merion thread and other threads.  You may recall that TEPaul and I got into it when I cited the excellent results achieved through Fazio on the
10 hole course, and big course at PV.

So, if he has a good track record at PV, why wouldn't they use him ?

Remember, as a member, if you do something wrong at a club, you usually hear about it every time you're on the property, so there's an incentive to perform at your best.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

And, who would determine that need ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

Two things,

First,
I would immediately amend you last post and
eliminate the reference to "MY FOYER  

Wars have been started over less inflamatory or innocent words.

Second,

The genisis for the idea or the need to alter the golf course must either begin or incubate within the club.

Fazio is but hired help who also happens to be a member.

Third, ( I added one)

What type of ripple effect will this have on the golf world ?
and other clubs in general ??

[W.H. Cosgrove]

My comments are based on my single trip to PV about 5 years ago.  At that time the course and many of features were overgrown.  PV was not the monster that I had been told about. It was a delight to play, however, and my only negative comment then was that I would have liked to see the underbrush etc. cleaned up so that some of the bunkers and features would be more visible.  #14, #2 and #12 seem to stand out in my mind at present.  

With that understading, I think any further 'major' changes could be a very slippery slope.  I don't care if the pros are hitting irons or fairway woods.  They must still negotiate the hazards and then the putting surfaces.  PV effects me as a place where length doesn't really matter.  

I also wonder about any member making changes to his home course.  I don't care if it's the east skid row CC or PV.  The hubris to undertake changes at ones own course would be dangerous.  If Fazio were to irreparably damage the place his reputation would be mortally wounded.  Or is it that his ego is too great to bring in C&C, Doak, Hanse, or Dye and allow them to impartially review the issues and then make suggestions?  

This would seem appropriate considering Crump's method of design and construction and ultimately the process that was followed after Crump's death.  How many architects came in to consult and complete Crump's dream?  Without knowing the number I know it was several.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

From today's Philadelphia Inquirer by Joe Logan:

"....new back tees on three holes,stretching the 7th, 9th and 13th holes by 25-30 yards each. In addition, at the 9th and 18th, fairway bunkers will be expanded to take away landing areas on the right side that were favored by long bombers."

"We simply want the holes to play as they were designed," said O.Gordon Brewer,president of Pine Valley, downplaying the work.

"All courses have to recognize that the game today is different from the game as it was when these courses were designed many years ago," Brewer said.

I will post the link to the entire article when it becomes available. The website is down now.

Steve

[Brian_Gracely]

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/7538981.htm