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Niall C

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2025, 05:58:29 PM »
Nonsense, in the old days Ran wouldn't intervene until someone had threatened taking court action. This thread's barely warmed up. Besides, Andrew's a Canook (did I spell that correctly ?) so rather than delete the thread perhaps the first thing he should do is threaten offenders with an additional 10% "reciprocal tariff" the next time they make a contribution to the website. 


Anyway, I don't think it matters whether you agree or don't agree with the idea behind the tariffs, there's a discussion to be had about the effects. And as I said before, from a UK context I think we're bound to see a significant reduction in overseas visitor numbers over the next few years.


Niall 

Craig Sweet


Bruce Katona

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2025, 07:22:55 PM »
Well, I for one am a little more locally focused..............my 401k account needs an IV drip for hydration & a Z Pak of antibiotics to kill the bug that infected it this week it...........not a good thing for someone who will need it in a year.
"If my words did glow with the gold of sunshine
And my tunes were played on the harp unstrung
Would you hear my voice come through the music
Would you hold it near as it were your own....."
Robert Hunter, Jerome Garcia

MCirba

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2025, 07:45:39 PM »

Well, I for one am a little more locally focused..............my 401k account needs an IV drip for hydration & a Z Pak of antibiotics to kill the bug that infected it this week it...........not a good thing for someone who will need it in a year.



Try applying for the Social Security you've paid into your entire life as I have been futilely attempting for 2 months, Bruce.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2025/04/07/social-security-website-crashes-musk-trump/?utm_campaign=wp_the7&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F41faa94%2F67f3adef1c02d2281d85cb69%2F5dd03ed7ade4e25a935bbcf0%2F31%2F111%2F67f3adef1c02d2281d85cb69


« Last Edit: April 07, 2025, 09:44:17 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sean_A

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2025, 08:58:16 PM »
Nonsense, in the old days Ran wouldn't intervene until someone had threatened taking court action. This thread's barely warmed up. Besides, Andrew's a Canook (did I spell that correctly ?) so rather than delete the thread perhaps the first thing he should do is threaten offenders with an additional 10% "reciprocal tariff" the next time they make a contribution to the website. 


Anyway, I don't think it matters whether you agree or don't agree with the idea behind the tariffs, there's a discussion to be had about the effects. And as I said before, from a UK context I think we're bound to see a significant reduction in overseas visitor numbers over the next few years.

Niall

I too thought the zebras blew the whistle prematurely. 😎

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty, Dumbarnie, Gleneagles Queens, Archerfield Fidra and Carradale

Rob Marshall

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2025, 11:11:27 PM »
The bottom line is no one knows what is going to happen. For better or worse an economically isolationist America has global markets panicked in the short term. Not only that, but interest rates aren’t low and Americans are, as always, in debt. This makes for problems on a global scale historically. It will be worth a study on whether a short term pinch by America’s middle and lower class will catalyze into an actual recession or just a short term market adjustment while US manufacturing and commodities production ramps up to meet demand for non-tariffed goods and services (as the administration hopes).


As it applies to our interests on this site I hope we don’t get into another Wicked Pony scenario.


Agreed on the bottom line.  But a recession or even a short-term downturn cannot be good for anyone, golf included.  I don't see US manufacturing being able to ramp up anytime soon, and if it does, what are the wages going to be and what will that mean for the US workers and consumers?  Just a question that I cannot answer.

 Trump is rolling the dice which he can afford to do given his lame duck position and his “he can do know wrong” supporters willing to spin and lie on a nearly daily basis.

Ciao


If you think Trump considers himself a lame duck, you've been missing out on the day to say stuff DOGE has been doing and the rhetoric his team has been pumping out even long before he took office.  The future of our democracy is in a very fragile position at the moment


Kalen,
Having lunch before a round of golf in January a republican told me that no one person is bigger than the country…… I believe him.


A friends wife just posted something slamming a guy driving a Tesla. Pretty sure 99% of electric car buyers did it for the environment but she worships a football team owned by a family who made their billions from fracking. The hypocrisy is astonishing. In full disclosure I didn’t  vote for Trump or Harris. What I would like to see is a future for my two year old granddaughter. Who BTW was my write in vote. She’s the smartest of the three.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2025, 11:29:05 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Thomas Dai

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2025, 05:09:00 AM »
As the one who raised this thread thank you all for your thoughts and comments especially to those who recognised the importance of attempting to keep politics out of the discussion.
This matter does have implications for the game and the business of golf particularly supply chain implications and imo as such warrents discussion.
Atb

Chris Hughes

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2025, 06:49:04 AM »
As the one who raised this thread thank you all for your thoughts and comments especially to those who recognised the importance of attempting to keep politics out of the discussion.
This matter does have implications for the game and the business of golf particularly supply chain implications and imo as such warrents discussion.
Atb


What are your expectations for the medium and long term?
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

C. Sturges

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2025, 08:03:18 AM »
This was around 10 years ago, but was talking with a superintendent in Europe who was from the UK.   He said he went back to the UK and bought his courses equipment there as it saved almost 50%. And that included there travel costs.   He didn’t explain why, so not sure if it was tariffs or the exchange rate.   
Wouldn’t be surprised to hear more people doing things like this to save and avoid fees.
All I know for sure, the 9 hole course I am at is busier than ever, and it’s still early spring.


as a side note, here in the USA country clubs had one of there best/busiest years in 2008 when the economy had issues.   More people staying home and playing local.

Don Mahaffey

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2025, 08:17:35 AM »
Been involved in a few new golf projets last couple of years and turf equipment was at least 12 months from order to delivery. One reason used was supply chain issues with parts coming from china. I have no idea if that is actually the case but if so I imagine the insanity of paying $90K for a mower and $120K for a sprayer will only get more insane.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2025, 08:23:18 AM by Don Mahaffey »

Tom_Doak

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2025, 10:01:52 AM »
Been involved in a few new golf projets last couple of years and turf equipment was at least 12 months from order to delivery. One reason used was supply chain issues with parts coming from china. I have no idea if that is actually the case but if so I imagine the insanity of paying $90K for a mower and $120K for a sprayer will only get more insane.


Yes, the market for used equipment (and used cars) that are already in the U.S. is bound to become much more active.  As will the need for mechanics to keep them running!

Ryan Book

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2025, 10:29:45 AM »

Speaking as the relatively poor in these parts...

My wife kind of surprised me last year when she suggested I go to Scotland for my fortieth birthday, a few years off yet. For she to come to that suggestion from under the weight of her constant financial anxiety (childhood thing) was to me an indication that she was confident in our household economics, if nothing else. Her husband could go to Scotland for a week and it would be great.


She hasn't retracted the offer but I'm certainly not rushing to book anything. The good news is that the law firm is doing well, thanks in part to the current, Lovecraftian state of things...whether her school district is forced to scale back its intervention specialist programs as funds stem remains a possibility. I don't think that odds are likely that she loses her job in the near future but I'm also less sure than I would have expected to be at this point last year.


This is a literal anecdote from my personal life but a greater metaphor for what economic touchpoint you wish to compare to. Financial uncertainty is a killer, whether you're thinking about joining a club or investing in a new manufacturing plant, regardless of political affiliation.


My problems, for the time being, are admittedly small fry compared to those approaching retirement. I hope things work out for both of us.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2025, 03:27:39 PM by Ryan Book »
"Cops are an abomination." - C.B. Macdonald and/or Jello Biafra

@BethpageBlackMetal

MCirba

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2025, 10:48:52 AM »
Ryan,


"Lovecraftian" is an accurate term I need to steal, thanks!


Yes, for those of use approaching retirement we don't understand the need to destroy the government to "fix" it.   It seems like just yesterday the Dow rose 57% between Election Day 2020 and Election Day 2024, we went record months of low unemployment breaking records since the 1960s, inflation had stabilized, infrastructure needs were being addressed, and we stood up to despots and dictators.  Wait, it was yesterday.


Untested new software installed by DOGE employees crashing Social Security servers: report
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Steve Lapper

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2025, 12:26:03 PM »
As the one who raised this thread thank you all for your thoughts and comments especially to those who recognised the importance of attempting to keep politics out of the discussion.
This matter does have implications for the game and the business of golf particularly supply chain implications and imo as such warrents discussion.
Atb


What are your expectations for the medium and long term?




It won't be close to what you seem to want to believe. The bias in your earlier posts insinuates a support for the thesis behind this administrations explanations for the tariffs.


Whatever you might think the benefit of these onerous tariffs will be (a positively skewed reset of global trade, domestication of manufacturing, onboarding of jobs to the U.S., etc...) the short and middle term first, second, and third levels of consequences will impart serious damage to the TRUST in U.S economic markets and capitalist ways.


The thought that manufacturers with current reliance on cheaper labor and dramatically lower Capex costs (especially with US long commercial rates north of 7%) are going to onshore new factories that typically take 3-5yrs to build and bring online is patently absurd. Capital investment is made on trust, stability and reliability of forecast. All three must be present to pull those triggers. This is even before you factor in the inflationary effect on building and machine construction!


Do you think $2000+ iPhones will only be a short term problem? With the toothpaste already out of the tube, how does Apple shift the bulk of their supply chain from Asia to the US fast and cost-efficient enough to get prices back to today's level? Does anyone think it could be done fast and cheap enough to stabilize affordable prices?


Will golf equipment manufacturing (clubs & balls thru to irrigation pumps, triplex mowers, and their parts) onshore? Will they borrow money at 7+% and build factories stateside to sell their goods to courses and clubs who are seeing their end customers reduce their discretionary spend after seeing their retirement savings obliterated and their social security and health benefits challenged or slashed??


Does anyone think the windfall here doesn't inure to China, the E.U. or India? Do you think those markets and economic policies aren't going to shift to take advantage of our isolationist perspective of global trade?


Does anyone think that the stronger, growth-oriented countries who currently import significant US goods won't slap a retaliatory tariff on us?


Bottom line: Had these tariffs been made uniformly and at sensible levels, the intended effects might have had a chance of a positive middle-to-long term outcome. No question tariffs can be a valuable tool in the economic policy tool shed, but when applied indiscriminatingly and with misplaced retaliation can be recipe for disaster.


If these tariffs remain in place, the secondary and tertiary effects (see Tom D's post on used equipment....can you spell inflationary?) are far likelier to scorch the earth to a crisp on the way to any imaginary perfectly balanced trade scenario.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2025, 05:28:57 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

John Kavanaugh

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2025, 12:56:43 PM »
Yuk

MCirba

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2025, 12:56:57 PM »
Well stated, Mr. Lapper but I suspect your words echo for a brief moment but then dissolve into "three monkeys" vapor in that fact-free ecosphere.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kavanaugh

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2025, 01:14:08 PM »
What changed where it is now necessary to air your political grievances here? Are we social media? Drewbaby, would you please start selling ads and make it official. 

Chris Hughes

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2025, 01:21:35 PM »
As the one who raised this thread thank you all for your thoughts and comments especially to those who recognised the importance of attempting to keep politics out of the discussion.
This matter does have implications for the game and the business of golf particularly supply chain implications and imo as such warrents discussion.
Atb


What are your expectations for the medium and long term?




It won't be close to what you seem to want to believe. The bias in your earlier posts insinuates a support for the thesis behind this administrations explanations for the tariffs.


Whatever you might think the benefit of these onerous tariffs will be (a positively skewed reset of global trade, domestication of manufacturing, onboarding of jobs to the U.S., etc...) the short and middle term first, second, and third level  will impart serious damage to the TRUST in U.S economic markets and capitalist ways.


The thought that manufacturers with current reliance on cheaper labor and dramatically lower Capex costs (especially with US long commercial rates north of 7%) are going to onshore new factories that typically take 3-5yrs to build and bring online is patently absurd. Capital investment is made on trust, stability and reliability of forecast. All three must be present to pull those triggers. This is even before you factor in the inflationary effect on building and machine construction!


Do you think $2000+ iPhones will only be a short term problem? With the toothpaste already out of the tube, how does Apple shift the bulk of their supply chain from Asia to the US fast and cost-efficient enough to get prices back to today's level? Does anyone think it could be done fast and cheap enough to stabilize affordable prices?


Will golf equipment manufacturing (clubs & balls thru to irrigation pumps, triplex mowers, and their parts) onshore? Will they borrow money at 7+% and build factories stateside to sell their goods to courses and clubs who are seeing their end customers reduce their discretionary spend after seeing their retirement savings obliterated and their social security and health benefits challenged or slashed??


Does anyone think the windfall here doesn't inure to China, the E.U. or India? Do you think those markets and economic policies aren't going to shift to take advantage of our isolationist perspective of global trade?


Does anyone think that the stronger, growth-oriented countries who currently import significant US goods won't slap a retaliatory tariff on us?


Bottom line: Had these tariffs been made uniformly and at sensible levels, the intended effects might have had a chance of a positive middle-to-long term outcome. No question tariffs can be a valuable tool in the economic policy tool shed, but when applied indiscriminatingly and with misplaced retaliation can be recipe for disaster.


If these tariffs remain in place, the secondary and tertiary effects (see Tom D's post on used equipment....can you spell inflationary?) are far likelier to scorch the earth to a crisp on the way to any imaginary perfectly balanced trade scenario.


Is there even just the tiniest sliver of a chance that you might be wrong?
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2025, 02:14:36 PM »
Is there even just the tiniest sliver of a chance that you might be wrong?
We have a policy that is arguing that trade surpluses are somehow "tariffs" or "trade barriers" against the United States. The same policy seems to suggest, and I know this is a meme, but they have actually claimed that the Heard Island and McDonald Islands have a 10% "tariff" or "trade barrier" against us when the islands are literally uninhabited.

Again, I'm trying to take this a seriously as possible, and I'm trying to avoid the politics of it altogether. As I've said before, I think the concepts behind policy are worthwhile. I think it's sensible to have tariffs on steel and semiconductors for very obvious national security reasons. I think we should have strong tariffs against goods from countries we have serious policy and/or trust disagreements with for broader policy reasons. I could even be tolerant of some straight up protectionism.

This is not that. This is a deeply convoluted policy. It also appears for now to be wielded in a very blunt way. Steve's concerns about capital investment is right on. At best we're looking at a four year period, and this policy could change in two or less given the Import-Export Clause in the Constitution. If we wanted this policy to be effective, it needs to be passed in a way that indicates it's permanence, and that means going through Congress. Using emergency powers to implement a policy designed to spur capital investment should have exactly the opposite effect.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2025, 02:20:08 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

John Kavanaugh

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2025, 02:27:50 PM »
There may be more better jobs in building a factory than staffing one. Who cares if it takes four years.

Chris Hughes

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2025, 02:59:00 PM »
Is there even just the tiniest sliver of a chance that you might be wrong?
We have a policy that is arguing that trade surpluses are somehow "tariffs" or "trade barriers" against the United States. The same policy seems to suggest, and I know this is a meme, but they have actually claimed that the Heard Island and McDonald Islands have a 10% "tariff" or "trade barrier" against us when the islands are literally uninhabited.

Again, I'm trying to take this a seriously as possible, and I'm trying to avoid the politics of it altogether. As I've said before, I think the concepts behind policy are worthwhile. I think it's sensible to have tariffs on steel and semiconductors for very obvious national security reasons. I think we should have strong tariffs against goods from countries we have serious policy and/or trust disagreements with for broader policy reasons. I could even be tolerant of some straight up protectionism.

This is not that. This is a deeply convoluted policy. It also appears for now to be wielded in a very blunt way. Steve's concerns about capital investment is right on. At best we're looking at a four year period, and this policy could change in two or less given the Import-Export Clause in the Constitution. If we wanted this policy to be effective, it needs to be passed in a way that indicates it's permanence, and that means going through Congress. Using emergency powers to implement a policy designed to spur capital investment should have exactly the opposite effect.


So what are you predicting will happen?



"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

David_Tepper

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #71 on: April 07, 2025, 03:10:23 PM »
This would be funny if it didn't cost us a trillion$ or two:


https://www.aei.org/economics/president-trumps-tariff-formula-makes-no-economic-sense-its-also-based-on-an-error/


p.s. The American Enterprise Institute is as conservative as they come.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2025, 03:19:17 PM by David_Tepper »

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #72 on: April 07, 2025, 03:12:49 PM »
There may be more better jobs in building a factory than staffing one. Who cares if it takes four years.
So this is a perfect example to demonstrate game-theory. Here is a sketch about the tradeoffs involve... these are just made up numbers, but the idea is that building a new factory is expensive and time consuming, and if the tariffs are removed, then it's basically a huge waste of time because it won't be competitive with the foreign factories:



Basically, the number in the left in each square represents the payoffs the company contemplating building a new factory, and the number on the right represents the payoffs to the people putting the policy in place. I don't want to argue about these numbers, this is just an illustration of a concept.

What game theory allows us to show (assuming these numbers are anywhere reasonable, but broadly, we could argue about them all day), is that the tariffs could theoretically produce a net positive result, but only if the government sticks to the tariff regime. This is what I mean about the problem of using emergency powers in this scenario, instead of going through Congress. If the tariffs are credibly going to be in place for the long haul, then yes, the capital investment, while painful for the companies, makes sense. However, if the tariffs are not going to be in place for the long haul, and I think it's important to remember that the gov't has strong, short-term incentives to remove them, then it's going to be extremely painful for companies who made capital investments.

This is what Steve means by "trust." The idea is that, for this type of policy to work, the tariffs need to be a credible threat to their business model many years into the future. The idea that they are being implemented by emergency powers, while at the same time there are senators crossing party lines to remove them, really, really, really, undermines that credibility. Without credibility, we might end up in the worst possible outcome for policy makers, no domestic investment, while sticking to our guns on tariffs and making everything wildly more expensive, which puts even stronger incentives for the gov't to remove the tariffs.

So what are you predicting will happen?
Again, it's hard to say what will happen, which is why all of this is so worrisome. I would suspect that the administrations sticks to their guns until it gets so painful that various outcomes become possible: tariffs get pulled back to more reasonable levels via some face-saving mechanism (possibly through a Supreme Court ruling saying it's unconstitutional to delegate tariffs to the executive), Republicans get absolutely destroyed in the midterms, at which point tariffs staying or going is still a coin flip.

The main problem here is the Fed is in a real pickle. Typically, you would lower interest rates in a potential recessionary event (and it's important to note that tariffs, in general, are not recession creating, they just reduce efficiency, but these should create real frictional issues which could easily create one), however, and this is a big however, if there is a recession, it will be an inflationary recession, which basically ties the hands of the Fed over their main tool for monetary policy... which is a problem.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2025, 03:15:03 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

John Kavanaugh

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #73 on: April 07, 2025, 03:15:59 PM »
Where I come from we build prisons to improve our lives.

Craig Sweet

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2025, 03:25:27 PM »
Informal though, but economist saying these tariffs are bad probably out number those that support Trumps tariffs by 10-1

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