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John Kavanaugh

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2025, 03:30:38 PM »
You ain’t gonna win the Nobel running with the pack. And we listen to economists why?


Edit. Noble was funny, but felt inflammatory.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2025, 03:33:51 PM by John Kavanaugh »

John Kavanaugh

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #76 on: April 07, 2025, 03:37:35 PM »
What contributions has economic theory ever done for golf? Has an economist ever thought about golf?

Chris Hughes

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #77 on: April 07, 2025, 03:39:00 PM »
There may be more better jobs in building a factory than staffing one. Who cares if it takes four years.


Great point!
👊
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

corey miller

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2025, 03:40:03 PM »





The hell with Trump, I want whatever Wall Street wants.


Components of Iphone 14 are ~$500.  What is the cost of Slave Labor on that $1000 phone?

Simon Barrington

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2025, 03:43:19 PM »
What contributions has economic theory ever done for golf? Has an economist ever thought about golf?
Some Bonds are priced relative to Par... ;)

Ian Mackenzie

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2025, 03:43:44 PM »
Also concerning is how this could impact overall American sentiment abroad.


- Will "foreign" consumers reject US products even beyond Canadians taking US bourbon off the shelves?
- Will they curtail eating McDonalds, smoking Marlboros and buying iPhones


- Will US tourists abroad be less welcome? Will they feel threatened?
- Will overseas tourists curtail their vacation plans to the US? (Impact on golf on other toiurism?)


US Mult-national companies may see widespread overseas revenue (and profit) declines that could make "woke politics" look attractive in comparison...;-)


Example: Will Peter Millar shirts be replaced by Galvin Greene and others in Europe causing PM to see a revenue decline?


So amusing that Bud Light lost 30% of their biz for  a "woke ad campaign" that led Chris Rock to open fire with a machine gun on a stack of beer. Now that his pal, Trump, just raised prices on everything while the economy was rocking, the Kid sucks on the Orange Anus in the Oval office while all his fans just got rat-fucked.


Dont think that "MAGA-Nation" will be lining up for jobs to stitch Nike sneakers in rural Appalachia.
Dont see Americans applying for $20/hr. jobs to stick chips on PCBs while wearing hair nets and masks when they refused to wear a mask during COVID.


Yes, this whole experiment with the US economy will not end well as it basically asks all of us to trust the guy who has more bankrupcies than there are trans-athletes in the NCAA.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2025, 03:44:54 PM »
I may have to wait a couple of years before I can buy my grandchildren an iPhone. The horror.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #82 on: April 07, 2025, 03:49:06 PM »
Did someone just say the my friends in the UK are going to stop emulating American culture. Bout time.

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #83 on: April 07, 2025, 03:51:13 PM »
What contributions has economic theory ever done for golf? Has an economist ever thought about golf?
Some Bonds are priced relative to Par... ;)
;D

Chris Hughes

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #84 on: April 07, 2025, 03:52:20 PM »
Also concerning is how this could impact overall American sentiment abroad.


- Will "foreign" consumers reject US products even beyond Canadians taking US bourbon off the shelves?
- Will they curtail eating McDonalds, smoking Marlboros and buying iPhones


- Will US tourists abroad be less welcome? Will they feel threatened?
- Will overseas tourists curtail their vacation plans to the US? (Impact on golf on other toiurism?)


US Mult-national companies may see widespread overseas revenue (and profit) declines that could make "woke politics" look attractive in comparison...;-)


Example: Will Peter Millar shirts be replaced by Galvin Greene and others in Europe causing PM to see a revenue decline?


So amusing that Bud Light lost 30% of their biz for  a "woke ad campaign" that led Chris Rock to open fire with a machine gun on a stack of beer. Now that his pal, Trump, just raised prices on everything while the economy was rocking, the Kid sucks on the Orange Anus in the Oval office while all his fans just got rat-fucked.


Dont think that "MAGA-Nation" will be lining up for jobs to stitch Nike sneakers in rural Appalachia.
Dont see Americans applying for $20/hr. jobs to stick chips on PCBs while wearing hair nets and masks when they refused to wear a mask during COVID.


Yes, this whole experiment with the US economy will not end well as it basically asks all of us to trust the guy who has more bankrupcies than there are trans-athletes in the NCAA.


Ian, deep down, how do you feel about the United States of America?
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Steve Lapper

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #85 on: April 07, 2025, 04:05:23 PM »
There may be more better jobs in building a factory than staffing one. Who cares if it takes four years.
So this is a perfect example to demonstrate game-theory. Here is a sketch about the tradeoffs involve... these are just made up numbers, but the idea is that building a new factory is expensive and time consuming, and if the tariffs are removed, then it's basically a huge waste of time because it won't be competitive with the foreign factories:



Basically, the number in the left in each square represents the payoffs the company contemplating building a new factory, and the number on the right represents the payoffs to the people putting the policy in place. I don't want to argue about these numbers, this is just an illustration of a concept.

What game theory allows us to show (assuming these numbers are anywhere reasonable, but broadly, we could argue about them all day), is that the tariffs could theoretically produce a net positive result, but only if the government sticks to the tariff regime. This is what I mean about the problem of using emergency powers in this scenario, instead of going through Congress. If the tariffs are credibly going to be in place for the long haul, then yes, the capital investment, while painful for the companies, makes sense. However, if the tariffs are not going to be in place for the long haul, and I think it's important to remember that the gov't has strong, short-term incentives to remove them, then it's going to be extremely painful for companies who made capital investments.

This is what Steve means by "trust." The idea is that, for this type of policy to work, the tariffs need to be a credible threat to their business model many years into the future. The idea that they are being implemented by emergency powers, while at the same time there are senators crossing party lines to remove them, really, really, really, undermines that credibility. Without credibility, we might end up in the worst possible outcome for policy makers, no domestic investment, while sticking to our guns on tariffs and making everything wildly more expensive, which puts even stronger incentives for the gov't to remove the tariffs.

So what are you predicting will happen?
Again, it's hard to say what will happen, which is why all of this is so worrisome. I would suspect that the administrations sticks to their guns until it gets so painful that various outcomes become possible: tariffs get pulled back to more reasonable levels via some face-saving mechanism (possibly through a Supreme Court ruling saying it's unconstitutional to delegate tariffs to the executive), Republicans get absolutely destroyed in the midterms, at which point tariffs staying or going is still a coin flip.

The main problem here is the Fed is in a real pickle. Typically, you would lower interest rates in a potential recessionary event (and it's important to note that tariffs, in general, are not recession creating, they just reduce efficiency, but these should create real frictional issues which could easily create one), however, and this is a big however, if there is a recession, it will be an inflationary recession, which basically ties the hands of the Fed over their main tool for monetary policy... which is a problem.




Matt does a very nice job of explaining the application of game theory, the variability of decisional timing and the subsequent consequences of various outcomes.


What particularly stands out, and should be understood by anyone trying to understand what the next 6-18mos may look like is the threat of an inflationary recession (i.e. severe stagflation).


One only has to look back to the Great Inflation, spanning from 1965-1982. That was a painful period of near 17yrs only halted by Paul Volker's dramatic interest-rate increases of the early 1980s. We aren't anywhere close to that kind of economic environment, but this tariff war, especially if it perpetuates retaliatory moves by major importers of US goods (Canada, Mexico, China, E.U., India, etc...) will skew the odds heavily to the downside (of GDP and US economy).


The Fed is indeed in a box. With a dual mandate of protecting against unemployment and inflation, it has very, very little room to move. If the current administration believes it can yield an effective capital markets put by forcing the Fed to make major cuts, it might be in for a big (negative) surprise. Fed Funds speculators are projecting 3-5 .25pt cuts before the end of this year, but that can (and will) change in a nanosecond. The dot curve says a few less, but that too can change with a few speeches and adjectives. Jay Powell won't likely be cowered into doing some political appeasement. He's simply too resolute a "Touch of Gray*" to surrender to either political party.


We are fated to live in interesting times.


John,


  You may be right about the quality of jobs, however with building costs being what they are, it's doubtful many will even be started anytime soon.


Chris,


  I suggest it would be time well spent studying at least the impact and ultimate effects of the 1930 Smoot -Hawley Tariff Act and the Stagflation of the 1970s. With that kind of knowledge you should be able to least understand the rather long odds of the chance that you are closer to right than not.


*I had the good fortune to actually see Chairman Powell at a Dead & Co. concert a few years back. I can confirm he was singing along with Bob & John. I don't imagine I'll see him at Sphere next month...might be a bit busy
« Last Edit: April 07, 2025, 04:24:14 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Ian Mackenzie

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #86 on: April 07, 2025, 04:24:48 PM »
Also concerning is how this could impact overall American sentiment abroad.


- Will "foreign" consumers reject US products even beyond Canadians taking US bourbon off the shelves?
- Will they curtail eating McDonalds, smoking Marlboros and buying iPhones


- Will US tourists abroad be less welcome? Will they feel threatened?
- Will overseas tourists curtail their vacation plans to the US? (Impact on golf on other toiurism?)


US Mult-national companies may see widespread overseas revenue (and profit) declines that could make "woke politics" look attractive in comparison...;-)


Example: Will Peter Millar shirts be replaced by Galvin Greene and others in Europe causing PM to see a revenue decline?


So amusing that Bud Light lost 30% of their biz for  a "woke ad campaign" that led Chris Rock to open fire with a machine gun on a stack of beer. Now that his pal, Trump, just raised prices on everything while the economy was rocking, the Kid sucks on the Orange Anus in the Oval office while all his fans just got rat-fucked.


Dont think that "MAGA-Nation" will be lining up for jobs to stitch Nike sneakers in rural Appalachia.
Dont see Americans applying for $20/hr. jobs to stick chips on PCBs while wearing hair nets and masks when they refused to wear a mask during COVID.


Yes, this whole experiment with the US economy will not end well as it basically asks all of us to trust the guy who has more bankrupcies than there are trans-athletes in the NCAA.


Ian, deep down, how do you feel about the United States of America?


Simple, i feel about the US like I feel about religion:


- Love our country, hate our current politics. (Both sides)
- Believe in God, despise organized religion.


In both cases, the similarities are startling.


Is the current USA analgous to "Ancient Rome"? Perhaps.
The more jarring hypothesis is if Trump and his VC pals believe that democracy is "outdataed software" and warrants a reboot.


so, your question, Chris, is also appllicable to all.


Here's a blurb from today's Fortune:


[size=2rem]Howard Lutnick says he hopes Trump’s tariffs will eliminate China’s ‘army of millions and millions of human beings screwing in little, little screws to make iPhones’ so they can be built in America by robots[/size]
« Last Edit: April 07, 2025, 04:40:27 PM by Ian Mackenzie »

Kalen Braley

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #87 on: April 07, 2025, 05:12:58 PM »
Thomas,

In light of the excellent assessment on using tariffs as financial instruments provided by Steve and Matt, this thread was pre-destined to be hopelessly political, because that's what these tariffs are based in....political acts based on animus.

And the same goes for the absurdly partisan targets in the cross hairs of the DOGE.

Ryan Book

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #88 on: April 07, 2025, 05:14:34 PM »

I'm sure that C.B. Macdonald, an accomplished stockbroker, probably dismissed economics entirely while making picks and earning the funds that would be put toward NGLA.


No, stockbrokers and economists aren't apples-to-apples. But this isn't a chicken-or-egg scenario, either. Money comes first and golf clubs follow...whether in orbit of the most successful cities or in the middle of nowhere, Nebraska.


I realize my punk rock / metal references might not connect so, to paraphrase classic rock icon Gucci Mane, there's usually only one person smiling in the drought.

What contributions has economic theory ever done for golf? Has an economist ever thought about golf?
"Cops are an abomination." - C.B. Macdonald and/or Jello Biafra

@BethpageBlackMetal

Buck Wolter

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #89 on: April 07, 2025, 05:34:11 PM »
What contributions has economic theory ever done for golf? Has an economist ever thought about golf?


Land banking
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

John Kavanaugh

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #90 on: April 07, 2025, 05:45:15 PM »
First time I heard about “Land Banking” it was about this facility constructed in 1993. The owner told me he was going to mess with it until someone bought the ground. This place provided a service to every golfer in the community. They had the only legit club fitter in town. That owner is dead now and golf is still being played.


https://teetimegolfcomplex.com/

Chris Hughes

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #91 on: April 07, 2025, 06:47:42 PM »
There may be more better jobs in building a factory than staffing one. Who cares if it takes four years.
So this is a perfect example to demonstrate game-theory. Here is a sketch about the tradeoffs involve... these are just made up numbers, but the idea is that building a new factory is expensive and time consuming, and if the tariffs are removed, then it's basically a huge waste of time because it won't be competitive with the foreign factories:



Basically, the number in the left in each square represents the payoffs the company contemplating building a new factory, and the number on the right represents the payoffs to the people putting the policy in place. I don't want to argue about these numbers, this is just an illustration of a concept.

What game theory allows us to show (assuming these numbers are anywhere reasonable, but broadly, we could argue about them all day), is that the tariffs could theoretically produce a net positive result, but only if the government sticks to the tariff regime. This is what I mean about the problem of using emergency powers in this scenario, instead of going through Congress. If the tariffs are credibly going to be in place for the long haul, then yes, the capital investment, while painful for the companies, makes sense. However, if the tariffs are not going to be in place for the long haul, and I think it's important to remember that the gov't has strong, short-term incentives to remove them, then it's going to be extremely painful for companies who made capital investments.

This is what Steve means by "trust." The idea is that, for this type of policy to work, the tariffs need to be a credible threat to their business model many years into the future. The idea that they are being implemented by emergency powers, while at the same time there are senators crossing party lines to remove them, really, really, really, undermines that credibility. Without credibility, we might end up in the worst possible outcome for policy makers, no domestic investment, while sticking to our guns on tariffs and making everything wildly more expensive, which puts even stronger incentives for the gov't to remove the tariffs.

So what are you predicting will happen?
Again, it's hard to say what will happen, which is why all of this is so worrisome. I would suspect that the administrations sticks to their guns until it gets so painful that various outcomes become possible: tariffs get pulled back to more reasonable levels via some face-saving mechanism (possibly through a Supreme Court ruling saying it's unconstitutional to delegate tariffs to the executive), Republicans get absolutely destroyed in the midterms, at which point tariffs staying or going is still a coin flip.

The main problem here is the Fed is in a real pickle. Typically, you would lower interest rates in a potential recessionary event (and it's important to note that tariffs, in general, are not recession creating, they just reduce efficiency, but these should create real frictional issues which could easily create one), however, and this is a big however, if there is a recession, it will be an inflationary recession, which basically ties the hands of the Fed over their main tool for monetary policy... which is a problem.




Matt does a very nice job of explaining the application of game theory, the variability of decisional timing and the subsequent consequences of various outcomes.


What particularly stands out, and should be understood by anyone trying to understand what the next 6-18mos may look like is the threat of an inflationary recession (i.e. severe stagflation).


One only has to look back to the Great Inflation, spanning from 1965-1982. That was a painful period of near 17yrs only halted by Paul Volker's dramatic interest-rate increases of the early 1980s. We aren't anywhere close to that kind of economic environment, but this tariff war, especially if it perpetuates retaliatory moves by major importers of US goods (Canada, Mexico, China, E.U., India, etc...) will skew the odds heavily to the downside (of GDP and US economy).


The Fed is indeed in a box. With a dual mandate of protecting against unemployment and inflation, it has very, very little room to move. If the current administration believes it can yield an effective capital markets put by forcing the Fed to make major cuts, it might be in for a big (negative) surprise. Fed Funds speculators are projecting 3-5 .25pt cuts before the end of this year, but that can (and will) change in a nanosecond. The dot curve says a few less, but that too can change with a few speeches and adjectives. Jay Powell won't likely be cowered into doing some political appeasement. He's simply too resolute a "Touch of Gray*" to surrender to either political party.


We are fated to live in interesting times.


John,


  You may be right about the quality of jobs, however with building costs being what they are, it's doubtful many will even be started anytime soon.


Chris,


  I suggest it would be time well spent studying at least the impact and ultimate effects of the 1930 Smoot -Hawley Tariff Act and the Stagflation of the 1970s. With that kind of knowledge you should be able to least understand the rather long odds of the chance that you are closer to right than not.


*I had the good fortune to actually see Chairman Powell at a Dead & Co. concert a few years back. I can confirm he was singing along with Bob & John. I don't imagine I'll see him at Sphere next month...might be a bit busy


It's a good thing we aren't charged by the word to post here...

...a tariff of any level would put you guys out of business! 😂
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Erik J. Barzeski

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #92 on: April 07, 2025, 06:56:49 PM »
What contributions has economic theory ever done for golf? Has an economist ever thought about golf?
I mean… this guy is close to an economist… https://business.columbia.edu/faculty/people/mark-broadie

Components of Iphone 14 are ~$500.  What is the cost of Slave Labor on that $1000 phone?
And the cost of software, R&D, and… so on add to that total.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2025, 06:59:22 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #93 on: April 07, 2025, 07:10:31 PM »
It's a good thing we aren't charged by the word to post here...

...a tariff of any level would put you guys out of business! 😂
High effort posts are good for forums. They do tend to involve more words.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #94 on: April 07, 2025, 07:13:20 PM »
It's a good thing we aren't charged by the word to post here...

...a tariff of any level would put you guys out of business! 😂
High effort posts are good for forums. They do tend to involve more words.


No

John Kavanaugh

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #95 on: April 07, 2025, 07:15:31 PM »
Dick Daley is the OG of long posts. I wish him well.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2025, 07:17:19 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Rob Marshall

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #96 on: April 07, 2025, 07:20:20 PM »
Also concerning is how this could impact overall American sentiment abroad.


- Will "foreign" consumers reject US products even beyond Canadians taking US bourbon off the shelves?
- Will they curtail eating McDonalds, smoking Marlboros and buying iPhones


- Will US tourists abroad be less welcome? Will they feel threatened?
- Will overseas tourists curtail their vacation plans to the US? (Impact on golf on other toiurism?)


US Mult-national companies may see widespread overseas revenue (and profit) declines that could make "woke politics" look attractive in comparison...;-)


Example: Will Peter Millar shirts be replaced by Galvin Greene and others in Europe causing PM to see a revenue decline?


So amusing that Bud Light lost 30% of their biz for  a "woke ad campaign" that led Chris Rock to open fire with a machine gun on a stack of beer. Now that his pal, Trump, just raised prices on everything while the economy was rocking, the Kid sucks on the Orange Anus in the Oval office while all his fans just got rat-fucked.


Dont think that "MAGA-Nation" will be lining up for jobs to stitch Nike sneakers in rural Appalachia.
Dont see Americans applying for $20/hr. jobs to stick chips on PCBs while wearing hair nets and masks when they refused to wear a mask during COVID.


Yes, this whole experiment with the US economy will not end well as it basically asks all of us to trust the guy who has more bankrupcies than there are trans-athletes in the NCAA.


Ian, Chris Rock and Kid Rock are two different people.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Steve Lapper

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #97 on: April 07, 2025, 08:00:56 PM »
It's a good thing we aren't charged by the word to post here...

...a tariff of any level would put you guys out of business! 😂
High effort posts are good for forums. They do tend to involve more words.


Matt,


Apparently, it's a tax on Chris' reading comprehension skills.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

corey miller

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #98 on: April 07, 2025, 08:38:05 PM »



Is seems to me that tariffs will return manufacturing to countries that are better stewards of the environment.   Certainly countries that have higher GDP per co2 emissions.  Can't we all be happy for that?

Wayne_Kozun

Re: Effects on golf of tariffs (not a political thread)
« Reply #99 on: April 07, 2025, 10:19:46 PM »
What contributions has economic theory ever done for golf? Has an economist ever thought about golf?
Adam Smith was born in Kirkcaldy Fife in 1723 - perhaps he was a golfer?

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