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Ira Fishman

Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« on: April 01, 2025, 03:43:49 PM »
I have not played one, but there are many that I have not played. If yes, why?

Kalen Braley

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2025, 04:02:11 PM »
I guess it depends who you ask:

Scott Hoch once referred to the Old Course as "the worst piece of mess" he had ever seen.

Sam Snead, who won The Open in 1946, had described it as "an old abandoned kind of place."

https://www.espn.com/golf/theopen15/story/_/id/13255209/the-open-appreciation-old-course-st-andrews-comes

Brian Finn

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2025, 04:19:27 PM »
I don't think I have played a links that is worse than a Doak 4 (modestly interesting, a couple of distinctive holes or some scenic interest, decent golf), and at least from my viewpoint, very few links courses would fall that low.  While I am an overseas visitor and largely aim to see the best courses in an area (so a fair dose of selection bias), I have started playing more and more courses most visitors likely would not consider and really haven't been disappointed yet.
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Michael Morandi

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2025, 09:01:33 PM »
My understanding is that most of the older links courses are characterized by holes that were “found” among the dunes. This might explain why architects could design a course in half a day. Modern links are more manufactured and can disappoint.

Mark Pearce

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2025, 04:20:14 AM »
I guess it depends on your definition of good.  I'll offer up Newbiggin.  https://www.newbiggingolfclub.co.uk/  Even there, though, there are a couple of strong holes.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Thomas Dai

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2025, 04:44:04 AM »
A lessor links (and/or heathlands, moorlands and their ilk) is likely superior to most parklands.
atb

Mark Pearce

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2025, 05:42:50 AM »
I guess it depends who you ask:

Scott Hoch once referred to the Old Course as "the worst piece of mess" he had ever seen.

Sam Snead, who won The Open in 1946, had described it as "an old abandoned kind of place."

https://www.espn.com/golf/theopen15/story/_/id/13255209/the-open-appreciation-old-course-st-andrews-comes
A quote which says far more about Scott Hoch than it says about TOC.  And an article in which Mickelson perfectly summarises the greatness of the course, and why first appearances do not reveal its greatness
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Robin_Hiseman

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2025, 06:19:26 AM »
The Broomfield at Montrose is tough to love.
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Richard Fisher

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2025, 08:31:43 AM »
There are sadly a fair few nine hole seaside courses, of which Abersoch is a prime example, which have been really spoiled by the addition of a secondary inland nine. Seahouses would be another. I have played the Broomfield at Montrose and would share Robin’s estimation: I always thought the old secondary course at Nairn (the Newton?) was the least distinguished second course of any major UK golf club.


So they can be found, if you really want, although there will always be one or two interesting shots to be played, whatever the overall standard…

Sean_A

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2025, 08:50:52 AM »
There are sadly a fair few nine hole seaside courses, of which Abersoch is a prime example, which have been really spoiled by the addition of a secondary inland nine. Seahouses would be another. I have played the Broomfield at Montrose and would share Robin’s estimation: I always thought the old secondary course at Nairn (the Newton?) was the least distinguished second course of any major UK golf club.

So they can be found, if you really want, although there will always be one or two interesting shots to be played, whatever the overall standard…

I think the better half of Seahouses are newer holes. Very unusual.

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New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty, Dumbarnie, Gleneagles Queens, Archerfield Fidra and Carradale

Colin Sheehan

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2025, 10:42:58 AM »

People have historically suggested the Cashen.

For me personally, it's hard to imagine a more disappointing links than Murvagh. That's a place that should think about a total reset.


Simon Barrington

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2025, 10:46:30 AM »
There are sadly a fair few nine hole seaside courses, of which Abersoch is a prime example, which have been really spoiled by the addition of a secondary inland nine. Seahouses would be another. I have played the Broomfield at Montrose and would share Robin’s estimation: I always thought the old secondary course at Nairn (the Newton?) was the least distinguished second course of any major UK golf club.

So they can be found, if you really want, although there will always be one or two interesting shots to be played, whatever the overall standard…
Yes, when 9 holes added on non-links land it can detract, few do it well as they tend to simply bolt on a new nine.
This is of course difficult as less featured land means needs more artificial hazards which are difficult to meld with the existing on linksland.

Re. Nairn -
"The Newton" isn't really a "second course" in the usual way, as it was was designed (by James Braid) in 1926 specifically for the encouragement of family play to introduce youngsters/beginners to the game.
It is Par 29 over 9-holes with a yardage of only 1,634yds.
In essence a more formally presented "short course" to grow the pipeline of golfers up at Nairn.

As in other ways, Braid was innovative and well ahead of his time in this, as he was when designing the World's oldest "Pitch & Putt" at Southsea Miniature c.1912 (which BTW is still in existence).

"The Newton" has served its purpose admirably for almost a century (much like the "Childrens' Course" at Gullane, the inspiration for the new "Kid's Course" at Old Barnwell) and is now known as the "Cameron Course" (I believe after a Club benefactor).



Back to the original question, this may be moot as there is considerable work going on there now, but one "links" course that really disappointed (albeit on only one play) was the Cashen at Ballybunion...


(EDIT - Colin you & I must have been typing at the same time...great minds or fools?  ;D )
« Last Edit: April 02, 2025, 10:48:28 AM by Simon Barrington »

Kalen Braley

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2025, 11:02:19 AM »
Does Florence Links, aka Sand Pines count as a links course?  I know its received a lot of scrutiny in the past as a significant missed opportunity on a sandy site.

P.S.  Mark, I meant my first comment as tongue in cheek, should have included some emoticons.

Niall C

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2025, 11:26:51 AM »
There are sadly a fair few nine hole seaside courses, of which Abersoch is a prime example, which have been really spoiled by the addition of a secondary inland nine. Seahouses would be another. I have played the Broomfield at Montrose and would share Robin’s estimation: I always thought the old secondary course at Nairn (the Newton?) was the least distinguished second course of any major UK golf club.


So they can be found, if you really want, although there will always be one or two interesting shots to be played, whatever the overall standard…


I think it possible to have a badly designed links, but if it is truly a links there will always be the joy of playing off links turf so no round on a links is likely to be a waste of time.


Niall

Niall C

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2025, 11:29:24 AM »

For me personally, it's hard to imagine a more disappointing links than Murvagh. That's a place that should think about a total reset.


Colin


Couldn't agree more. Very much a wasted opportunity IMO. Who do you think is to blame on that one ? I know they have had several gca's over the years starting with the blessed Eddie Hackett if my memory serves me correctly.


Niall

Peter Sayegh

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2025, 11:39:07 AM »
Sorry for interruption. Is the Murvagh discussed above Donegal? Thanks.

Jim Hoak

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2025, 11:43:50 AM »
I don't know of any 18-hole course with a greater degree of variability than Port Stewart in Northern Ireland.  Love 9 and hate 9.  I'm not sure I'd really classify the "bad" 9 as a links.  But so, be it.

Mark Pearce

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2025, 12:02:45 PM »
Noordwijkse is, very clearly, NOT a bad golf course.  It's very good.  But it feels like it's on great land, and it isn't great.  So it's my most disappointing links that I have played, I think.


Or Birkdale (insert emoji and run.......)
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Thomas Dai

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2025, 05:49:39 PM »
There’s a course, indeed soon to be two, just north of Aberdeen owned by an orange tariff imposer that some may have suggested fits into such a category! Each to their own though. :)
Atb

Phil Young

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2025, 06:43:32 PM »
Yes, there is...the OLD Course. It's definitely not a "good" course as it is unquestionably a GREAT course!

JohnVDB

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2025, 07:24:33 PM »
Probably the least interesting links course I’ve played would be Wick. The first 8 holes are basically on the edge of a farmers field.  It gets a bit better on the way in but still didn’t excite me that much. I played it in 2020 and haven’t felt the urge to go back even when I’m up that way.


It’s not terrible but I wouldn’t go above a Doak 4 which Brian mentioned as the low bar.

Kyle Harris

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2025, 06:29:17 AM »
I've never been on a links course but this thread has me more curious than ever as to what actually constitutes a *bad* links course. Fascianting stuff to read and one day experience.
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Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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-Tom Doak

Ally Mcintosh

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2025, 09:50:58 AM »
Did CBM not itemise what makes for a great golf course and less than 50% of it was down to design?


If I recall, 25% was down to soil / turf. And 25% was down to topography.


Every links course - without exception - should score high or maximum marks with the first 25%.


Most have a pretty good showing on the second 25% because even the flattest of links usually have some decent micro-interest.


That’s a good start in getting to a 4 on the Doak scale. However, there are some really bland designs that try hard not to get above that number.

David_Tepper

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2025, 02:02:02 PM »
I echo JohnVDB's comments about Wick.

I played Hesketh 40 years ago. I remember a stretch of very flat land with a number of boring holes. Oddly enough that land was closer to the sea than the land nearer the clubhouse, which had plenty of humps, hollows and dunes.

Rob Marshall

Re: Is there a links course that is not a good course?
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2025, 04:17:19 PM »
I don't know of any 18-hole course with a greater degree of variability than Port Stewart in Northern Ireland.  Love 9 and hate 9.  I'm not sure I'd really classify the "bad" 9 as a links.  But so, be it.


Agree, thought the front 9 was great. Back 9 could have been anywhere.


Played Sandy Hills in 2013. Wasn’t bad but boy was it hard that day.
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