What constitutes a "golf club"?

[Bernie Bell]

If a claim of "we are a golf club" is made...


...what are you looking for to confirm or deny said claim?

A lot like pornography, you will know it when you see it. 


You can certainly see when one was but isn't anymore IMO.

Any specific "amenities/offerings" that signal "isn't anymore"...??

I was a member of a "golf club" that ran into financial trouble.  At a membership meeting, it became apparent that the Board and a majority of those present cared more about preserving the chef's daily soup offerings than they did about taking prudent measures to save the club.  To be fair, the soup was amazing. 

[Jon Sweet]

If a claim of "we are a golf club" is made...


...what are you looking for to confirm or deny said claim?

A lot like pornography, you will know it when you see it. 


You can certainly see when one was but isn't anymore IMO.

Any specific "amenities/offerings" that signal "isn't anymore"...??

I think "golf clubs" tend to be golf only.  That is the only focus.  These clubs start to branch out, family lunches, events, weddings, social media advertising, just sort of in my mind forgets what they are good at.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have been a member at both CCs and GCs. Golf Clubs generally have fewer rules. Just behave like a gentleman. For instance, golf clubs generally don't care if you find an open hole to start on. Our caddiemaster would often drive us to an open hole. Golf clubs don't have a lot of flowers cluttering up the course.

[Ben Malach]

What is the point of this thread? What is the value?


If there is none can we erase it from the face of the earth

[Chris Hughes]

If a claim of "we are a golf club" is made...


...what are you looking for to confirm or deny said claim?

A lot like pornography, you will know it when you see it. 


You can certainly see when one was but isn't anymore IMO.

Any specific "amenities/offerings" that signal "isn't anymore"...??

I was a member of a "golf club" that ran into financial trouble.  At a membership meeting, it became apparent that the Board and a majority of those present cared more about preserving the chef's daily soup offerings than they did about taking prudent measures to save the club.  To be fair, the soup was amazing.

What was it that put the club on a bad financial path?


And what was the outcome?

[Chris Hughes]

If a claim of "we are a golf club" is made...


...what are you looking for to confirm or deny said claim?

A lot like pornography, you will know it when you see it. 


You can certainly see when one was but isn't anymore IMO.

Any specific "amenities/offerings" that signal "isn't anymore"...??

I think "golf clubs" tend to be golf only.  That is the only focus.  These clubs start to branch out, family lunches, events, weddings, social media advertising, just sort of in my mind forgets what they are good at.

You'll get no argument from me there!

[Tim Martin]

I have been a member at both CCs and GCs. Golf Clubs generally have fewer rules. Just behave like a gentleman. For instance, golf clubs generally don't care if you find an open hole to start on. Our caddiemaster would often drive us to an open hole. Golf clubs don't have a lot of flowers cluttering up the course.

I’ve never heard anyone make the distinction of a country club versus a golf club being flowers or lack thereof.

[Bernie Bell]

If a claim of "we are a golf club" is made...


...what are you looking for to confirm or deny said claim?

A lot like pornography, you will know it when you see it. 


You can certainly see when one was but isn't anymore IMO.

Any specific "amenities/offerings" that signal "isn't anymore"...??

I was a member of a "golf club" that ran into financial trouble.  At a membership meeting, it became apparent that the Board and a majority of those present cared more about preserving the chef's daily soup offerings than they did about taking prudent measures to save the club.  To be fair, the soup was amazing.

What was it that put the club on a bad financial path?

And what was the outcome?

[edit]

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have been a member at both CCs and GCs. Golf Clubs generally have fewer rules. Just behave like a gentleman. For instance, golf clubs generally don't care if you find an open hole to start on. Our caddiemaster would often drive us to an open hole. Golf clubs don't have a lot of flowers cluttering up the course.

I’ve never heard anyone make the distinction of a country club versus a golf club being flowers or lack thereof.

Tim, I can't think of any golf club with a flower bed beside a tee. Flowers next to a tee were commonplace at the country clubs where I was a member. It may have something to do with the makeup of members. Golf clubs tend to be male-dominant. My golf club outside DC had three female members.

[Bruce Katona]

The Cambridge on-line Dictionary defines "wank" as a verb; "wankery" as a noun.  I was unaware the noun existed.


I just learned something .

[Chris Hughes]

If a claim of "we are a golf club" is made...


...what are you looking for to confirm or deny said claim?

A lot like pornography, you will know it when you see it. 


You can certainly see when one was but isn't anymore IMO.

Any specific "amenities/offerings" that signal "isn't anymore"...??

I was a member of a "golf club" that ran into financial trouble.  At a membership meeting, it became apparent that the Board and a majority of those present cared more about preserving the chef's daily soup offerings than they did about taking prudent measures to save the club.  To be fair, the soup was amazing.

What was it that put the club on a bad financial path?

And what was the outcome?

[edit]

I presume getting into the details was deemed imprudent but I'd venture a guess that wildly over-spending on the golf course wasn't the problem!!   

I once tried to get the Board of a "golf club" to adopt The .51c Rule. 

The .51c Rule takes the entirety of club "payroll" and views it as a single $1.00. 

With the The .51c Rule in place once the out-year budgeting process starts .51c of every payroll $ is immediately allocated to paying the Greens Department staff -- no exceptions. 

Then, the other functional/operating departments (Golf and F&B) are right sized to whatever payroll $$$'s are left over after the Greens Department allocation. 

The obvious goal being to prioritize and protect the golf course vs. other perceived "amenities".

[Chris Hughes]

The Cambridge on-line Dictionary defines "wank" as a verb; "wankery" as a noun.  I was unaware the noun existed.


I just learned something .

 


Things mentioned that when present constitute "not a golf club":

-- family lunches
-- (outside) events
-- weddings 
-- social media presence
-- pickleball
-- social memberships (as a new joiner category)
-- workout facilities
-- swimming pool
-- lots of rules

Others?

How does the clubhouse factor into the mosaic that defines a "golf club"?

[John Blain]

The best quote about this subject came from the great golf writer Charlie Price who said:


"If you don't know the difference between a golf club and a country club you are probably a member of a country club."

[Tommy Williamsen]

Some things cannot be explained. I hosted a friend at my golf club. He loved the course but asked why I would belong to a club that didn't have a pool or tennis courts. I didn't bother.

[Tim Martin]

The Cambridge on-line Dictionary defines "wank" as a verb; "wankery" as a noun.  I was unaware the noun existed.


I just learned something .

 


Things mentioned that when present constitute "not a golf club":

-- family lunches
-- (outside) events
-- weddings 
-- social media presence
-- pickleball
-- social memberships (as a new joiner category)
-- workout facilities
-- swimming pool
-- lots of rules

Others?

How does the clubhouse factor into the mosaic that defines a "golf club"?

Having to listen to the sounds of pickleball while playing golf is right up there with a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

[Chris Hughes]

Some things cannot be explained. I hosted a friend at my golf club. He loved the course but asked why I would belong to a club that didn't have a pool or tennis courts. I didn't bother.

I'm told Jimmy Dunne filled the Seminole pool with dirt and grew grass there..


...a quick glance on google earth seems to confirm this. 

[Paul Jones]

My definition:


Golf Club - Golf Only
Country Club - Golf plus (Tennis, Swim, etc...)

[Ben Malach]

So in essence this thread is a bunch of old men mad at other old men for spending their money differently cool.


Great use of two pages and 3 days of time in earth.

[Chris Hughes]

So in essence this thread is a bunch of old men mad at other old men for spending their money differently cool.


Great use of two pages and 3 days of time in earth.

To quote another guy in the space who at one time had a lot of traffic on his website...


...the scroll button is your friend.


(did I slip already?  )

[Carl Johnson]

Obviously a lot of different opinions.  What I would look for is a culture that values the game of golf.  The members, at least most of them, the leaders particularly, understand the history and traditions of the game and the etiquette and rules, understand the architecture of the club's course, and truly enjoy the experience of playing the game together (no club tossing in anger, etc.).  If these criteria are met, I wouldn't strike a club off simply because it had some non-golf amenities.

[Carl Johnson]

So in essence this thread is a bunch of old men mad at other old men for spending their money differently cool.

Great use of two pages and 3 days of time in earth.

Ben, usually I can tell from the title of the thread whether I'll be interested.  If not, I just don't open it.  Sometimes I make a mistake and look at something I think I'd be interested in, but it turns out I am not.  So what I do then is exit out without comment and not return.  The worst are those that put a teaser in the title but you have to open to find out what it's really about.  I never bother with those.

[Richard Fisher]

Very well said Carl. 100% agreement. To my earlier point there are plenty of places in the UK, all emphatically ‘golf clubs’, that have open licenses permitting the general public to eat and drink: this is often a financial necessity for survival. Harlech is one, Dunstanburgh is another, and I recall a sign at I think Goswick encouraging walkers on the coastal path to stop off for tea and cake. In no way does this devalue their ‘golf-ness’.

[Ben Malach]

Carl:

Here is the thing: I do find this topic interesting, and I think there is a conversation to be had here.

However, this thread reads like a list of fuddy-duddy chaps looking for something to glout about.

I think golf clubs can exist without the need for property like the earlier golf clubs did. I also think there is a growth of these clubs, and that these new clubs are going to be very influential in the game.

I provided a list in my first post that was glossed over in favour of talking about if pools were important.

The one I have yet to mention, but it might be prudent to further discussion on this thread, is whether LinksDao is a golf club or an investment product. If it is a golf club, that means owning a digital token is a way to form a club.

If you want to talk about the future, I will be checking back in to see if you have gotten beyond minor pedantic matters.

[Chris Hughes]

Very well said Carl. 100% agreement. To my earlier point there are plenty of places in the UK, all emphatically ‘golf clubs’, that have open licenses permitting the general public to eat and drink: this is often a financial necessity for survival. Harlech is one, Dunstanburgh is another, and I recall a sign at I think Goswick encouraging walkers on the coastal path to stop off for tea and cake. In no way does this devalue their ‘golf-ness’.

Makes a lot of sense. 


Bethpage State Park has a "golf club" that has been in operation there for decades -- it is called the Nassau Players Club -- membership is limited and by invitation only.  The "club" and the Park are completely separate entities but there is an element of cooperation between the two (or at least there used to be).  This is an example of a "club" operating within the confines of a 100% public facility.


What you seem to be describing with Harlech et al. is private golf club (in control of the course) with a public dining operation attached.  Seems they must make money on F&B if that part helps carry the operation.


My question centers around golf clubs that are truly private in how they are organized. 


This is the prevalent model (in the U.S.) and it doesn't allow for any outside/drop-in F&B business, nor should it given most clubs (golf & country) lose money on every meal they serve! 


A golf club that decides to emphasize growing the F&B ops is headed straight down the path to no longer being a "golf club".


 

[Ben Malach]

Chris,


Thank you for that meaningful contribution to the discourse.

If your definition cannot answer the question, perhaps it is inadequate.


I agree that the Nassau Players Club sounds like an interesting organization, and I'm sure it's well-managed to maintain its relationship with the parks department.

However, I don't see why the presence of a restaurant or pool matters in determining whether or not it's a golf club. Also, why does it matter? If it fails, it might become a public course. That becomes home to the neoclassical model of golf club.


All that matters for a golf club to be a golf club is that it’s one of the central thing binding the group to each other is golf.


Beyond that, I think there are a lot of models that we can talk about how that affinity with the game is expressed.
like is an app that organizes leagues, games and handicaps like Sparkgolf and Fairgame. Golf clubs, or are they just facilitators?


 So sorry, I have no opinion on if the quality of the chef's soup effects how I see a club or any other frivolity

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