Are fast greens really more difficult to putt?

[Michael Morandi]

After playing most of my golf on 11-13 stimp greens, I struggle on slower greens. Obviously, one can be more aggressive on slower greens but more often than not it’s harder to get the ball to the hole. Additionally, slow greens allow for positions with more slope. Thoughts?

[Kyle Harris]

I think this idea is also side-effect to technology but not in the way I've ever heard anyone explain before...

Modern putters (the club) are simply better on faster greens.

[Matt Schoolfield]

From a naive perspective, on a relatively flat green, I think it's safe to say that faster greens are "more difficult" simply because the amount of error in a shot to keep it within three feet is smaller.

This isn't the end of the story, however, because you also need to account for contouring. If the contouring is not matched well with the faster speed, then the pinnable areas get so small that putting down a contour become simply getting to ball to effectively stop at the top of the contour and have it run down to the pin for an easy tap in. Whether or not this is "more difficult" is debatable. On the one hand, it's simply like putting a shorter distance, and allowing the ball to run out, but on the other hand, it still requires the player to read the run out.

I guess the thing I would say is most important, is that (it seems to me at least) fast and slow greens putt very differently. It feels like the skill required to curl a putt to the hole on a slower green is just a fundamentally different putt (and line) than the same putt on a fast green, where the ball will trickle down from above the hole on it's own. I don't think one or the other is significantly more difficult (though I tend to struggle more on faster greens), but the feel is wildly different to me.

[Tim Martin]

From a naive perspective, on a relatively flat green, I think it's safe to say that faster greens are "more difficult" simply because the amount of error in a shot to keep it within three feet is smaller.

This isn't the end of the story, however, because you also need to account for contouring. If the contouring is not matched well with the faster speed, then the pinnable areas get so small that putting down a contour become simply getting to ball to effectively stop at the top of the contour and have it run down to the pin for an easy tap in. Whether or not this is "more difficult" is debatable. On the one hand, it's simply like putting a shorter distance, and allowing the ball to run out, but on the other hand, it still requires the player to read the run out.

I guess the thing I would say is most important, is that (it seems to me at least) fast and slow greens putt very differently. It feels like the skill required to curl a putt to the hole on a slower green is just a fundamentally different putt (and line) than the same putt on a fast green, where the ball will trickle down from above the hole on it's own. I don't think one or the other is significantly more difficult (though I tend to struggle more on faster greens), but the feel is wildly different to me.

Judging the runout on fast greens is an underrated skill.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Judging the runout on fast greens is an underrated skill.

I completely agree. My point about runout is mostly on greens that are cut faster than the contours can support, leaving only small pinable areas. This usually happens a courses that increase their green speed when they had greens from a previous era. If fast greens are constructed intentionally, with smaller counters that require speed off the slope to reach the hole, then it's a well designed green for its speed, and can be very challenging, again, because of the smaller room for error in putting speed. However, most courses aren't new and most greens weren't built for current green speeds.

[Ian_L]

My theory:


- Lag putting is easier on slower greens because small differences in speed are magnified less.


- Short putts are easier on faster greens because the ball is moving slower at the hole, which makes the hole effectively bigger (less likely to lip out if the ball is moving slower).


Ready to be proven wrong by someone with data!

[Rob Marshall]

My theory:


- Lag putting is easier on slower greens because small differences in speed are magnified less.


- Short putts are easier on faster greens because the ball is moving slower at the hole, which makes the hole effectively bigger (less likely to lip out if the ball is moving slower).


Ready to be proven wrong by someone with data!

I would say putts 10 feet and in are easier because your stroke is shorter.

[Jim_Coleman]

   The harder I have to hit it, the harder it is for me to keep it on line.

[jeffwarne]

No.
Good-great players only complain about slow greens.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Moving from greens that stimp at 8 to greens that stimp at 13 is difficult. Figuring out pace and how much a ball will break on greens of differing speeds is hard to figure out.

[Adam_Messix]

Fast greens separate good putters from bad putters.




Slow greens separate good putters from great putters.

[Sean_A]

Depends on the greens. Mix a lot of contour, slope and speed and hell yes, they are more difficult than slower greens of similar slope and contour. That said, I have only experienced this a limited number of times and at least twice I thought it was silly difficult. Too much speed reduced the fun.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

It’s not the same for everyone, and it depends on what you’re used to.  If you’re used to very fast greens, you’ll be leaving putts way short on slow greens and that’s a difficult adjustment.  If you’re not used to fast greens, the prospect of going 10 feet past on a 20-footer is frightening.

[Joe Hancock]

My theory:


- Lag putting is easier on slower greens because small differences in speed are magnified less.


- Short putts are easier on faster greens because the ball is moving slower at the hole, which makes the hole effectively bigger (less likely to lip out if the ball is moving slower).


Ready to be proven wrong by someone with data!

I love this method….float a theory without data, and then only be willing to be proven wrong with data.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

In general, and given some time to adjust (like 20 minutes warming up on the putting green), players who can break 95 putt better on faster greens.

All golfers three-putt a bit more often. But they make more of the shorter range putts (15 feet and in). The latter offsets the former and then some, across the board.

A few studies (I want to say three? It was more than one) showing this came out maybe 10-12 years ago. I talked about it quite a bit with some putting instructors at the time, and one of the guys who conducted one of the studies.

[jeffwarne]

Perhaps a new thread but..
Are greens that stimp 13 with enough slope in the pinnable area to play a foot of break on a 10 footer.....
harder to putt....
than greens that stimp 9 with enough slope(as in far more than the first example)for a putt to break the same amount.
I'd say the slower green with more slope.


But let's say they putt equal.
Assuming both greens are similarly firm.
I would still argue the green with more slope would(could) place more of a premium on angles due to a larger impact on first bounce thus making the game more interesting.

[Chris Hughes]

Much prefer FAST greens...takes the "hit" out of it. 

[Ben Malach]

Depends how flat they are.

[Matt_Cohn]

Technically not a part of the question, but a notable factor is that pretty much every chip/pitch/bunker shot gets harder on faster greens.

[archie_struthers]

it depends how fast you are talking. Obviously most of the answers above are right . But at the highest levels when they pass the speed of sound it's the hardest.


Think of all the great players struggling at Shinnecock in 2004. I know it was windy ad maybe even a little bumpy but that's part of the equation. Having watched some great amateurs play Pine Valley in my youth, the Crump Cup qualifier in the early 80's stands out. Dick Bator,  then superintendent (maybe the GOAT) stewed for months after Bob Lewis shattered the scoring record the previous year. He somehow managed to have the greens cranked up without anyone noticing , and in the qualifier only two guys broke 80> Jay Sigel and Harcourt Kemp. Know I'm going back in time for many of our younger members , but to this day I have never seen anything like it. We played it the Monday after in the caddy tournament and it was unreal LOL   never forget it


Year in and year out Augusta proves that the green speed is a factor , though we might argue the firmness is more of a detriment to scoring. Well , as stated , interesting the divergence of opinion here, with all having some basis in fact !

[Tom_Doak]

Technically not a part of the question, but a notable factor is that pretty much every chip/pitch/bunker shot gets harder on faster greens.

This is true and an important point.


On the fastest greens I have ever played -- Chicago Golf Club one fall day with a couple of friends -- it became almost impossible to keep a little chip shot or pitch on the green.


I'm with Jeff Warne in preferring greens with more slope and firmness and less speed, but you already knew that. I feel that we are trying to fight the Pentagon on this topic.  Everybody else in the industry seems to want no arms control, which might be because the money is coming out of someone else's pocket and into theirs.

[Joe Hancock]

IMO, Chris hughes makes a great point when he states fast greens “takes the HIT out of it”. Back when greens were slower, the best putters were the ones who could consistantly find the sweet spot of their putter. A mishit on a slow green, especially uphill, outted the mishit. On faster greens, the sweet spot is much diminished…..also IMO and without data to prove anyone else’s theories wrong.

[Peter Sayegh]

   The harder I have to hit it, the harder it is for me to keep it on line.

Much prefer FAST greens...takes the "hit" out of it. 

I would say putts 10 feet and in are easier because your stroke is shorter.

A longtime PGA tour caddie was convinced fast greens minimized the flaws in one's putting mechanics.

[Ira Fishman]

Slower on any putt except downhill exposes flaws in one's stroke; downhill on fast greens exposes one's nerves.

[Craig Sweet]

Golf would be cheaper, play would be faster, and the game more sustainable if green speeds maxed out at 10-10.5

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