Pin position "rules"

[Carl Johnson]

Talking with a friend of mine, he said he thought there were "rules" about pin placements, such as "how close to the collar" or "how much slope."  I responding by saying that the PGA Tour and the USGA might have some guidelines for their events, but of course that there were no rules as such.  I wonder if such guidelines (if any) are published.  Obviously you can't have hard and fast guidelines because current conditions always must come into play.  Observations?

[Kyle Harris]

Published? Not that I'm aware of but these days (read: modern green speeds) 2-2.5% slope within three feet of the hole location would be considered a "difficult" hole location.

As for distance from the edge? An unwritten rule of thumb is no less than a flagstick length away but I've seen (and used) closer where it helped the golfer.

I've seen it written that a ball will not stop on a 3% slope with a green that measures 10' on a stimpmeter.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I've seen it written that a ball will not stop on a 3% slope with a green that measures 10' on a stimpmeter.

Yes it will. It'll stop on a 5% slope on a stimp 10 green. Maybe you heard it in degrees, but even then it's closer to 4°.

Carl, there are no written rules as you correctly noted. On the PGA Tour they try to keep holes on 1% slopes and away from crowns (crowns do provide for four straight putts to each hole, even tilted crowns, with three of them being uphill putts, so they will use a broad/wide crown occasionally).

[Ben Hollerbach]

In the USGA’s How to Conduct a Competition guide, page 48, they detail a dozen or so guidelines for proper pin position selection.

[Tommy Williamsen]

In my younger days (1975-1985), I played in the MD Open, AM, and Middle Atlantic Open. I knew the official who set up the course for the MD Open and AM play. At that time, his rule of thumb was never to put a pin closer than 15 feet from the fringe. It wasn't a rule, just a guideline for himself.

[Chris Hughes]

In my younger days (1975-1985), I played in the MD Open, AM, and Middle Atlantic Open. I knew the official who set up the course for the MD Open and AM play. At that time, his rule of thumb was never to put a pin closer than 15 feet from the fringe. It wasn't a rule, just a guideline for himself.

I worked at a PGA Tour event back in the 90's and seem to remember a "5-paces" guideline.  This would align perfectly with your experience. 

[Tom_Doak]

The guideline was five paces from the edge when I first got into the golf business; it’s down to three on Tour and at the U.S. Open.

[Kyle Harris]

I've seen it written that a ball will not stop on a 3% slope with a green that measures 10' on a stimpmeter.

Yes it will. It'll stop on a 5% slope on a stimp 10 green. Maybe you heard it in degrees, but even then it's closer to 4°.

Carl, there are no written rules as you correctly noted. On the PGA Tour they try to keep holes on 1% slopes and away from crowns (crowns do provide for four straight putts to each hole, even tilted crowns, with three of them being uphill putts, so they will use a broad/wide crown occasionally).

That makes more sense. I was likely confusing the two!

I just use a putter!

[Kyle Harris]

The guideline was five paces from the edge when I first got into the golf business; it’s down to three on Tour and at the U.S. Open.

Back right of Streamsong Blue #11 was just over two paces but everyone loved it because the ball would settle back there with little effort. When we regrassed I nudged the grass line a little bit behind the mound to make it more visually palatable.

[Chris Hughes]

Out of curiosity I pulled out the pin-sheets from the 2018 US Mid-Am for the stroke-play qualifying rounds.

Charlotte CC was the host, and Carolina G&CC the stroke-play co-host. 

The edge #'s by hole...

CCC:  Front -> 7, 6, 9, 7, 7, 9, 5, 8, 8 = 66 total.  Back -> 6, 5, 5, 7, 6, 5, 9, 7, 13 = 63 total.

CG&CC:  Front -> 4, 4, 5, 5, 3 (!), 12, 7, 6, 11 = 57 total.  Back -> 5, 5, 5, 5, 4, 6, 6, 4, 9 = 49 total.


Once match-play started at CCC the USGA got much more aggressive with the pins there.  5 paces or less 23 times, including 15 pins @ 4 or 3 paces from the edge. 


NOTE:  In the stroke-play rounds "from the front" number was less than 10 paces on 3 occasions.  At CCC hole #13 was 8 paces on.  At CG&CC hole #4 was 5 paces, hole #11 was 8 paces.   

[Kyle Harris]

Out of curiosity I pulled out the pin-sheets from the 2018 US Mid-Am for the stroke-play qualifying rounds.

Charlotte CC was the host, and Carolina G&CC the stroke-play co-host. 

The edge #'s by hole...

CCC:  Front -> 7, 6, 9, 7, 7, 9, 5, 8, 8 = 66 total.  Back -> 6, 5, 5, 7, 6, 5, 9, 7, 13 = 63 total.

CG&CC:  Front -> 4, 4, 5, 5, 3 (!), 12, 7, 6, 11 = 57 total.  Back -> 5, 5, 5, 5, 4, 6, 6, 4, 9 = 49 total.


Once match-play started at CCC the USGA got much more aggressive with the pins there.  5 paces or less 23 times, including 15 pins @ 4 or 3 paces from the edge. 


NOTE:  In the stroke-play rounds "from the front" number was less than 10 paces on 3 occasions.  At CCC hole #13 was 8 paces on.  At CG&CC hole #4 was 5 paces, hole #11 was 8 paces.   

Stroke play rounds in USGA Championships determined by Match Play are dedicated to one thing: Pace of play.

There is almost inevitably a playoff and everyone very much wants that playoff determined by EOD on the second day of Stroke Play.

"That's an illegal pin position!"

-The same guy who took two off the first tee and fluffed his lie 20 yards right of the 4th fairway

[Chris Hughes]

Out of curiosity I pulled out the pin-sheets from the 2018 US Mid-Am for the stroke-play qualifying rounds.

Charlotte CC was the host, and Carolina G&CC the stroke-play co-host. 

The edge #'s by hole...

CCC:  Front -> 7, 6, 9, 7, 7, 9, 5, 8, 8 = 66 total.  Back -> 6, 5, 5, 7, 6, 5, 9, 7, 13 = 63 total.

CG&CC:  Front -> 4, 4, 5, 5, 3 (!), 12, 7, 6, 11 = 57 total.  Back -> 5, 5, 5, 5, 4, 6, 6, 4, 9 = 49 total.


Once match-play started at CCC the USGA got much more aggressive with the pins there.  5 paces or less 23 times, including 15 pins @ 4 or 3 paces from the edge. 


NOTE:  In the stroke-play rounds "from the front" number was less than 10 paces on 3 occasions.  At CCC hole #13 was 8 paces on.  At CG&CC hole #4 was 5 paces, hole #11 was 8 paces.   

Stroke play rounds in USGA Championships determined by Match Play are dedicated to one thing: Pace of play.

There is almost inevitably a playoff and everyone very much wants that playoff determined by EOD on the second day of Stroke Play.

"That's an illegal pin position!"

-The same guy who took two off the first tee and fluffed his lie 20 yards right of the 4th fairway

The 2018 US Mid-Am pin positions at CG&CC stand in diametric opposition to your statement above -- they were positively devilish!

[Lou_Duran]

Course set-up has been of particular interest and concern for me for the past 30+ years as green speeds have increased and the ownership and operations of many courses have evolved from local families to national corporate entities.  It is reasonable to assume that the expertise of "professional" operators would result in better set-ups for members and daily-fee players.  My experience, based on playing 20-40 different courses annually for many years, is that the opposite seems to be true.  In an effort to minimize expenses and increase operating income, the important task is often relegated to an available maintenance employee with minimal training and experience as a player.


As a former volunteer with the Texas Golf Association and the USGA in tournament administration and officiating, the aforementioned suggested guidelines were normally followed.  Unfortunately, these were occasionally applied without consideration to specific course and weather conditions, which resulted in impossible tee and hole placements on a couple holes (including necessitating the rare change of a hole location early in the round, with several groups having to replay the hole before the round was finalized).


On Thursday at my home course (private, owned by a corporation), the front 9 had a majority of the holes located toward the back third for a total of +67 paces from center.  The back 9 was +22, for a total of +89 to the scorecard yardages. 


I ran into our most senior maintenance worker, an irrigation specialist, at the turn and asked him who set-up the course that day.  In response he asked me what "set-up" meant, and when I told him placing the tees and cutting cups, he said that he did it first thing that morning after being instructed to set the tees on the yardage markers for a minor afternoon competition.  The hole locations are given to him by an app (ezLocator) which is also used to generate the hole locations sheets for the players.  He didn't know what goes into selecting the specific locations on a given day (presumably a logarithm to rotate the holes to minimize turf wear and other factors), though because it often put placements too close to the edges and on severe slopes, he "pushed" them a bit (he is not a golfer, though he's been in the golf business for well over 20 years).


I don't know how important course set-up is to most golfers, though I've often heard gripes about impossible hole locations, mainly from good players.  I suspect that well-conditioned greens fare higher.  My opinion is that poor course set-up, especially extraordinarily difficult hole locations, has a bigger impact on the average golfer's estimation of the course than the quality of the design. 


     

[Kyle Harris]

Lou,

If the setup was using EZ-Locater for a competition it seems your comments and questions should be directed to those responsible for course setup: The Committee.

If they are not available, then perhaps the head golf professional or superintendent.

[Carl Johnson]

Great responses.  Thanks.  And this.

From reply 12: "The hole locations are given to him by an app (ezLocator) which is also used to generate the hole locations sheets for the players."

I've reviewed how it actually works (sitting at a computer with a super). ezLocator does not "give hole locations."  What it does do is show slopes in colors.  Dark green = relatively flat, through light green, yellow, orange and to red = increasingly steeper (%) grades).  Ridges are well defined.  The ezLocator company comes to your course and uses high tech scanning equipment (premium version) to map the contours.  They call the resulting colored maps that show up on the computer screen "heat maps," referring to the "heat" of the colors, not the temperature.  They also claim to be able to factor in stimp measurements to adjust the heat readings.  You could go onto a a green yourself and by spending some time, and using common (golf) sense, do the same thing.

The ezLocator website https://www.ezlocator.com/ gives you a look at how it works.  Last time I checked it out it was a skimpy website, but now seems to have been upgraded.  And be sure to check out their video (for which you must sign up).

Then, a live, sentient human being must decide where to put the holes (based on the slopes shown on the heat maps) and taking "other factors" into account.  Following that, the same or another human being must go onto the green and punch the hole, hopefully where the first human being has decided the hole should be. This could be done by precise measurement or by "pacing it off".  Said individual must also, finally, confirm by using his knowledge and skill that the chosen hole location is a suitable one.

Please correct me if you think I don't have it right.

Maybe some day the ezLocator software will program a drone that will fly out to the green, drop down, and mark the exact spot chosen by the human being in the office with a white spot to mark the hole location.

[Duncan Cheslett]

After years of being exposed to the commonly held wisdom of golfers vis a vis "illegal" pin positions my first action when I embarked on a new career as a greenkeeper was to check the rules so that I did my job correctly when setting pins.


There aren't any rules!


I'm in England so USGA guidance has no relevance - the R&A is our governing body. The R&A offers no guidance whatsoever regarding how far from the edge of a green a hole position can be placed. A pin 2" from the edge is perfectly fine!


This makes my job as a greenkeeper so much more fun!

[Tommy Williamsen]

This makes my job as a greenkeeper so much more fun!

Greenkeepers having fun setting the pins irritate us golfers. Don't have too much fun.

[Kyle Harris]

After years of being exposed to the commonly held wisdom of golfers vis a vis "illegal" pin positions my first action when I embarked on a new career as a greenkeeper was to check the rules so that I did my job correctly when setting pins.


There aren't any rules!


I'm in England so USGA guidance has no relevance - the R&A is our governing body. The R&A offers no guidance whatsoever regarding how far from the edge of a green a hole position can be placed. A pin 2" from the edge is perfectly fine!


This makes my job as a greenkeeper so much more fun!

The R&A invented a tunnel to use a Stimpmeter in high winds, too.

[Tom_Doak]

This makes my job as a greenkeeper so much more fun!

Greenkeepers having fun setting the pins irritate us golfers. Don't have too much fun.

Embrace it, Tommy!


When I worked on the renovation of Piping Rock 40 years ago, the golf chairman remarked that the guy who cut the holes every day was an old pro who struggled with alcoholism, and every once in a while you’d go out to play and the pins were WILD. 

[Joe Hancock]

This makes my job as a greenkeeper so much more fun!

Greenkeepers having fun setting the pins irritate us golfers. Don't have too much fun.

It’s OK to be irritated, but once golfers begin to express their frustration too often, the pins become dull, boring, repetitive, etc., because honestly, who wants to hear it every time someone puts out some “fun” pins?


I had the privelege of teaching both of my sons how to set pins, and when the oldest went on to become an assistant at a local country club, he began setting pins. The members came up and thanked him for using parts of the greens that hadn’t seen pins in years…..perhaps, due to irritation over fun pins?

[Ira Fishman]

I am not sure why we should complain about a pin position. Everyone on that day plays the same course. Unless the pin positions slow down play too much, it is what it is for all of us on that day.

[Chris Hughes]

I am not sure why we should complain about a pin position. Everyone on that day plays the same course. Unless the pin positions slow down play too much, it is what it is for all of us on that day.

I am sure that your doubt is misplaced...

[Carl Johnson]

I am not sure why we should complain about a pin position. Everyone on that day plays the same course. Unless the pin positions slow down play too much, it is what it is for all of us on that day.

There is certainly some truth in what you say, especially looking at from a competitive standpoint - match play two or four ball for example, or professional stroke play.  You could set up some gooney golf holes and it would still be fair (equitable).  However, day to day recreational players like to have a chance to make a score.  You can argue about whether that (making a score) should be relevant, but I dare say it is for the vast majority of recreational golfers.  Pin positions aren't a ratings (rating/slope) factor either, so implicit in the ratings must be an assumption about the general reasonableness of pin positions. Beyond that, you'd admit, I think, that there are certain places where a pin would be absurd.  Then there are gradations away from that, and folks are going to differ on the cut-off.  In short, I believe pin position is a relevant concern.

[Ira Fishman]

Carl,


Your point about course ratings is a good one that I had not considered. More generally, I find that the ratings system is flawed because length is too dominant a factor.


Thanks.


Ira

[Tommy Williamsen]

This makes my job as a greenkeeper so much more fun!

Greenkeepers having fun setting the pins irritate us golfers. Don't have too much fun.

It’s OK to be irritated, but once golfers begin to express their frustration too often, the pins become dull, boring, repetitive, etc., because honestly, who wants to hear it every time someone puts out some “fun” pins?


I had the privelege of teaching both of my sons how to set pins, and when the oldest went on to become an assistant at a local country club, he began setting pins. The members came up and thanked him for using parts of the greens that hadn’t seen pins in years…..perhaps, due to irritation over fun pins?

It is always interesting to see the pins that new superintendents set. Every time I've had a new Super, I see brand new pins.

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