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Thomas Dai

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #100 on: Yesterday at 01:57:20 PM »
Curious to know what percentage of posted round scores in the US would be posted by players who are actual members of golf clubs as distinct from pay-n-play, muni course etc golfers?
In the U.K. I suspect a very high percentage would be rounds posted by clubs members.
Atb

Erik J. Barzeski

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #101 on: Yesterday at 02:02:38 PM »
Curious to know what percentage of posted round scores in the US would be posted by players who are actual members of golf clubs as distinct from pay-n-play, muni course etc golfers?
In the U.K. I suspect a very high percentage would be rounds posted by clubs members.
That's part of why the differences exist. The differences are much smaller now, but they still exist.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Thomas Dai

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #102 on: Yesterday at 02:09:37 PM »
Curious to know what percentage of posted round scores in the US would be posted by players who are actual members of golf clubs as distinct from pay-n-play, muni course etc golfers?
In the U.K. I suspect a very high percentage would be rounds posted by clubs members.
That's part of why the differences exist. The differences are much smaller now, but they still exist.
Any idea as to the USA proportion/percentage?
Atb

Keith Phillips

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #103 on: Yesterday at 02:47:26 PM »
Great question on the proportion of private club member rounds in the US vs. public/muni play.  I don't know the answer but private clubs in the US are often very pricey so I think there would be far more 'public' golfers than private.  20+ years ago when I was a casual (adult) public golfer I didn't even know how handicaps worked, and didn't post a score until I joined my first club.  I would guess the overwhelming majority of private club rounds in the US are 'posted'...but would guess the opposite is true for public/muni rounds.  So 'more rounds played away from private clubs' but 'more rounds posted AT private clubs' would be my guess.  I wonder if the USGA has such data?

Michael Felton

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #104 on: Yesterday at 02:52:54 PM »
I'm on record: I think it was a miss to bend toward the US system and not adopt the competition-based system of the UK, Australia, and elsewhere in the WHS.


The two point system (course rating and slope rating) is much superior to the one point system that the UK used to use (just a course rating - standard scratch score). The US system is also much faster to catch up to a change in ability than the UK system was. I think the competition-based system has its merits, but it's very difficult for people who are not members of a club, which makes that not really workable in the US. For its sins, I think the WHS is a pretty good system. I think its biggest issue is the difference between the handicaps it produces and the expectations of the people who get those handicaps.

Jason Thurman

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #105 on: Yesterday at 03:18:39 PM »
I'm on record: I think it was a miss to bend toward the US system and not adopt the competition-based system of the UK, Australia, and elsewhere in the WHS.


The two point system (course rating and slope rating) is much superior to the one point system that the UK used to use (just a course rating - standard scratch score). The US system is also much faster to catch up to a change in ability than the UK system was. I think the competition-based system has its merits, but it's very difficult for people who are not members of a club, which makes that not really workable in the US. For its sins, I think the WHS is a pretty good system. I think its biggest issue is the difference between the handicaps it produces and the expectations of the people who get those handicaps.


Definitely agree on the merits of using rating + slope. My statement there is strictly based on the use of comp rounds.


And I totally get the immediate reaction of "Courses in the US don't offer competitions, particularly on the public side, and therefore comp-based posting wouldn't work here." But I think that's shortsighted - it assumes that if you put a "comp rounds only" rule in place, that nothing else would change. I think it's a shortcoming of US golf that competition is so hard to find if you're a public course player, while 6 hour rounds on courses full of drunk yahoos are so easy to find. I would LOVE it if, in my city, the average local public course offered one or two comp days a month, requiring a handicap for entry, and otherwise making friendly competition readily available to anyone. It's not a strength of our golf culture that the average public golf experience is so transactional and anti-communal. I can't think of a better, realistic catalyst that could've made an impact so quickly.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #106 on: Yesterday at 03:47:44 PM »
Haven't the home golf unions in UK&Irl made the change recently to allow non-members of golf clubs obtain golf handicaps, so being a member of a club is no longer required?


I've heard that this has negatively impacted the finances of small remote clubs that offered letter-box golf memberships (at least that's what they're called in Sweden). A club in Ireland recently announced it would close and this was one of the reasons mentioned.


EDIT: I see it's called iGolf and was introduced in England, Scotland and Wales in 2021, and last year in Ireland. New Zealand also provides this option.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:53:02 PM by Dónal Ó Ceallaigh »

Pete Lavallee

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #107 on: Yesterday at 04:13:10 PM »
I belong to 3 Men’s Clubs here in SD and play 10 competition rounds per month; 14 of my 20 scores are C rounds. So there are serious golfers who enjoy competition here in the US. Of the 600 members at my primary course 300 play in Tournaments. Before the WHS we manually computed completion handicaps using only tournament scores. The same people stopped wining all the time and winning scores dropped from net 65-66 to net 68-70.


We have asked the SCGA to allow us to have a competition based index in addition to the all inclusive one and they have flat out refused! It seems that having  a completion index as well as a regular one would be the ideal solution for the entire world. Allow Clubs to decide which one to use for their Tournaments.


WHY CANT WE HAVE A SEPERATE INDEX THAT LUMPS COMPETION SCORES?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Michael Felton

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #108 on: Yesterday at 05:11:44 PM »
Haven't the home golf unions in UK&Irl made the change recently to allow non-members of golf clubs obtain golf handicaps, so being a member of a club is no longer required?


I've heard that this has negatively impacted the finances of small remote clubs that offered letter-box golf memberships (at least that's what they're called in Sweden). A club in Ireland recently announced it would close and this was one of the reasons mentioned.


EDIT: I see it's called iGolf and was introduced in England, Scotland and Wales in 2021, and last year in Ireland. New Zealand also provides this option.


Presumably this is a result of the non-competition scores allowance that now exists.

Michael Felton

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #109 on: Yesterday at 05:12:19 PM »
I belong to 3 Men’s Clubs here in SD and play 10 competition rounds per month; 14 of my 20 scores are C rounds. So there are serious golfers who enjoy competition here in the US. Of the 600 members at my primary course 300 play in Tournaments. Before the WHS we manually computed completion handicaps using only tournament scores. The same people stopped wining all the time and winning scores dropped from net 65-66 to net 68-70.


We have asked the SCGA to allow us to have a competition based index in addition to the all inclusive one and they have flat out refused! It seems that having  a completion index as well as a regular one would be the ideal solution for the entire world. Allow Clubs to decide which one to use for their Tournaments.


WHY CANT WE HAVE A SEPERATE INDEX THAT LUMPS COMPETION SCORES?


I think that's a pretty good idea. GHIN must have all the data that they would need to create a C score index

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