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Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #75 on: Yesterday at 06:08:16 PM »
David,


I think that is the big difference between GB&I and the US; I also believe there is quite a difference in the number of competitions at Irish clubs when compared with UK clubs.


I think it's quite common in Ireland for clubs to hold single (stroke/stableford) competitions every weekend. Many clubs have mid-week open competitions to attract non-members. Then there are the Open Weeks (many of which are up to 10 days long), Open Weekends and Scratch Cups (Senior/Junior/Intermediate). I have to say the competitive nature of Irish golf is insane; there are so many club competitions, senior competitions, inter-club, inter-county, provincial, etc., it's crazy!

Lou_Duran

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #76 on: Yesterday at 06:20:32 PM »
I thought that some were in disagreement with the changes in handicap calculation which is to now include all rounds except those that are pure practice playing multiple balls, etc. The statements I thought made it their position that only stroke play competitions should be included in handicap calculations.  If I am incorrect then I am sorry for any misstatements on my part.


When the last major change was made to unify the handicap systems, I was told by a staffer of the USGA and two or three senior volunteers with interest in handicapping, that the USGA agreed to exclude unaccompanied rounds as a concession to the R & A for its inclusion of non-competitive rounds to calculate a valid index.  It was not a matter of either being optional, though players under R & A's system had some lead time, a year as I recall, to comply.


I made the argument against not posting unverified rounds (playing as a "onesome") that integrity was a cornerstone of the game and that I couldn't remember an instance outside of a formal competition where cards were traded and two signatures required to post a score.  Nevertheless, the concession was made to unify the systems, but it has been well-known that in the UK and Australia, golfers ignore this putative agreement.


Not being a competitive golfer any longer, I could not establish a meaningful handicap by only posting competitive rounds.  That being the case, when I've played in the UK, it is very clear to me that USGA handicaps are 3-6+ strokes lower (conjecture) than those of my local counterparts.  It is not a big deal in "friendly" matches like in the Buda, but opens such as the Carnegie Shield is another matter all together, even before considering the home turf advantage.


All of this handicap stuff was not a concern when I was young and could get into most local events and national qualifiers (subject to the 8-10 stroke performance rule).  Now that I sport a 9.5 index, it is of some significance as I go against young Europeans and Ausies playing off a 15 who outdrive me by 50 yards with a 3-metal and I'm giving 5 strokes.  It is not much of a competition if we're working from different bases, one reflective of tournament performance, the other mostly on casual rounds, the majority played on a home course.


I don't know that there is a solution outside games played by known parties.  Though it won't work in the U.S., I believe the R & A system is superior. 


   

Sean_A

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #77 on: Yesterday at 08:43:17 PM »
I know this is off topic but I believe related: you are not allowed to post a score if you use a rangefinder/laser with the slope feature or any other feature other than distance measuring turned on.  So many people I play with believe you can have those features on unless it is a competition round. (At least in the US)

Jerry

In my experience guys don’t turn off non yardage features. It just seems to be accepted that it’s not a big deal to use this info.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Craigielaw, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty, Dumbarnie, Gleneagles Queens and Carradale

Jerry Kluger

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #78 on: Yesterday at 10:28:18 PM »
Sean: That just seems to be kind of absurd - do they have other rules that they just don't care about? Perhaps playing a ball as it is since it is only a little bit out of bounds? I guess it would be more comparable to the "breakfast ball" on the first tee which I don't particularly like as it makes you unprepared for when you don't have that option in a competition.

Niall C

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #79 on: Today at 07:18:44 AM »
Sean: That just seems to be kind of absurd - do they have other rules that they just don't care about? Perhaps playing a ball as it is since it is only a little bit out of bounds? I guess it would be more comparable to the "breakfast ball" on the first tee which I don't particularly like as it makes you unprepared for when you don't have that option in a competition.


When not holing out for any number of holes and making up your score seems to be acceptable then having a measuring device doesn't seem the biggest crime.


Niall

Jim Sherma

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #80 on: Today at 09:32:08 AM »

Mark - Agree with everything you say. It's not that a given individual should expect to shoot their handicap, but the distribution of scores should reflect the handicaps playing. It's the extent of the skewed distribution that is crazy to see. I would expect to see some reasonable part of the field shooting at or better than their handicap (10-20% maybe). I do not see that at my own club's events let alone regional events away from most of the players' home courses.

So few people seem to be able to play to their handicaps when everyone is playing by the rules.
Your index is an average of the best 8 of 20 last recorded scores.  Even assuming an even distribution of scores in that 8 (and, in reality, there'll be a smaller number of lower scores) that would mean that you would not expect a player to play "to their handicap" more than 4 times in 20 or once in five.  In reality, the proportion will be lower than that, particularly amongst higher handicaps.


Why do people expect that players should "play to their handicap"?

Chris Hughes

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #81 on: Today at 12:52:33 PM »
Wow! You asked questions about what happens in GB&I. I respond and that is somehow “jingoistic”!? Could you retract that accusation please.
Just as soon as y'all stop acting morally superior over the rules of handicapping, as if what's done in the U.S. for decades now is just morally reprehensible and no self-respecting Englishman would be caught dead even considering posting a casual round, ha ha ha. Sure.

Otherwise, no, I won't take back a word that means "overly patriotic or nationalistic." There's probably a better word out there, as this isn't political, really… but… you seem to be just as offended by this as the idea of posting a casual round.  ;D

I know this the same way that you know that US casual and club golfers would need to see golf as a sport and not a pastime.
There are plenty of golfers in the U.S. who see it as a sport (and plenty in the UK who see it as a pastime), and I don't think the handicap system is the determining factor there at all.


I approve this message.


Appears the "World Handicap System" devised jointly by the R&A and USGA is a myth...
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Kalen Braley

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #82 on: Today at 12:53:44 PM »
Based on my experience with American golfers and USGA caps vs my understanding of the UK system, it seems like the preferred methodology depends on the goal.

Whether that be a leisurely method to track basic player ability with little to no oversight among a user base of golfers where the vast majority either don't understand the rules, care to play by them, or deliberately manipulate them.

VS one that more accurately assesses player ability with mechanisms for accountability, oversight, and integrity of competitions.

Erik J. Barzeski

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #83 on: Today at 01:08:21 PM »
Appears the "World Handicap System" devised jointly by the R&A and USGA is a myth...
Another poor/shallow take by Chris. Never mind that the ROW adopted course ratings and slope, or that the U.S. did away with solo rounds in prep for this, or that other concessions were made (ROW allowing non-comp rounds is on that list).
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Rob Marshall

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #84 on: Today at 01:39:38 PM »
What I find interesting that was in an earlier post is that the USGA did away with posting solo rounds "as a concession" to the UK. I've never understood why I can play with three strangers out of town and post effectively whatever I want but I can't post a score when I play alone in what is supposed to be a game of honor and integrity. In an early discussion about handicapping it was never mentioned that this was a concession by the USGA.



If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Michael Felton

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #85 on: Today at 01:54:25 PM »
Funnily enough, in a sense the USGA is saying we trust you and you alone to post your score without any verification, but we do want you to be playing with someone - presumably that makes it less likely you'll be playing two balls or totally mucking around. The UK system is saying we don't trust you to post a score on your own - we need verification from someone else that you scored what you say you scored. Maybe that's some kind of cultural difference, but I don't think the USGA is questioning your honor or integrity

Erik J. Barzeski

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #86 on: Today at 01:55:53 PM »
This has been explained to you before, Rob.

The simplest answers are:
1. When using a handicap it’s never alone. It’s always with people. So, with people is more like the conditions in which you’ll use the index than it is if you’re alone.
2. It was a concession to the ROW for the WHS (with MUCH stricter) rules.

"Lack of honesty" isn't in the top 30 reasons why the USGA went this route… and the list is only about five items long. If anything, as Michael says, the UK method of requiring attestation says more about whether they feel you're honest than the USGA's system of non-attestation.

The U.S. system is not questioning your honor/integrity. At all.

I don't know how to make it any clearer for you.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Rob Marshall

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #87 on: Today at 02:23:31 PM »
This has been explained to you before, Rob.

The simplest answers are:
1. When using a handicap it’s never alone. It’s always with people. So, with people is more like the conditions in which you’ll use the index than it is if you’re alone.
2. It was a concession to the ROW for the WHS (with MUCH stricter) rules.

"Lack of honesty" isn't in the top 30 reasons why the USGA went this route… and the list is only about five items long. If anything, as Michael says, the UK method of requiring attestation says more about whether they feel you're honest than the USGA's system of non-attestation.

The U.S. system is not questioning your honor/integrity. At all.

I don't know how to make it any clearer for you.


Erik, What I have gathered per the post I was referring to, is that the only reason the USGA doesn't allow you to post when playing alone is SOLEY because of a concession to the UK. It appears or is applied by that poster that it was going to be allowed before that concession.


As for the UK system it appears to me to be the most accurate system. Ball is in the hole. Score is attested. Doesn't get any better than that imo.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Tim Martin

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #88 on: Today at 02:25:35 PM »
This has been explained to you before, Rob.

The simplest answers are:
1. When using a handicap it’s never alone. It’s always with people. So, with people is more like the conditions in which you’ll use the index than it is if you’re alone.
2. It was a concession to the ROW for the WHS (with MUCH stricter) rules.

"Lack of honesty" isn't in the top 30 reasons why the USGA went this route… and the list is only about five items long. If anything, as Michael says, the UK method of requiring attestation says more about whether they feel you're honest than the USGA's system of non-attestation.

The U.S. system is not questioning your honor/integrity. At all.

I don't know how to make it any clearer for you.


When you actually apologized to one of the UK guys in an earlier post I thought your identity had been hijacked as grace has never been a strong suit for you. I noticed you’ve regained your usual high handed snark in short order and have taken aim at the people you generally ignore. ::)  Lesson book light today?

Rob Marshall

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #89 on: Today at 02:31:07 PM »
Funnily enough, in a sense the USGA is saying we trust you and you alone to post your score without any verification, but we do want you to be playing with someone - presumably that makes it less likely you'll be playing two balls or totally mucking around. The UK system is saying we don't trust you to post a score on your own - we need verification from someone else that you scored what you say you scored. Maybe that's some kind of cultural difference, but I don't think the USGA is questioning your honor or integrity


Good point Michael, but that doesn't make sense if the USGA only disallowed single player posting as a concession. (two balls or mucking around wouldn't seem to come into play) However, maybe there was no concession. I don't know but I believe the poster.


I guess the question I would ask is which system provides the best indicator of your playing ability?
« Last Edit: Today at 03:48:54 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Rob Marshall

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #90 on: Today at 02:35:40 PM »
This has been explained to you before, Rob.

The simplest answers are:
1. When using a handicap it’s never alone. It’s always with people. So, with people is more like the conditions in which you’ll use the index than it is if you’re alone.
2. It was a concession to the ROW for the WHS (with MUCH stricter) rules.

"Lack of honesty" isn't in the top 30 reasons why the USGA went this route… and the list is only about five items long. If anything, as Michael says, the UK method of requiring attestation says more about whether they feel you're honest than the USGA's system of non-attestation.

The U.S. system is not questioning your honor/integrity. At all.

I don't know how to make it any clearer for you.


When you actually apologized to one of the UK guys in an earlier post I thought your identity had been hijacked as grace has never been a strong suit for you. I noticed you’ve regained your usual high handed snark in short order and have taken aim at the people you generally ignore. ::)  Lesson book light today?


Tim, Nothing I didn't expect.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Jerry Kluger

Re: OT UK Handicaps
« Reply #91 on: Today at 04:26:12 PM »
Sean: If you choose to hole out every putt then you have the right to do so.  You may have to wait until the other players have done so such as in the case where your putt is conceded by your opponents but you still can do it. Although there may be some questioning looks on the faces of others in your group if you keep missing 2 footers that had been conceded :)  On the other hand, there is no shall we say grey area when it comes to lasers using the slope feature.  Heck, there are some traditionalists who refuse to use a laser and that is their right to do so.

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