OT UK Handicaps

[Rob Marshall]

Are you guys still just posting competition scores or every round you play like the US?

[Duncan Cheslett]

Very few people I know post every round. Most never post a non competition round.


Those that do are generally trying to get their handicap down…




… or up! 😉

[Ally Mcintosh]

I still just post competition rounds (probably about 20 a year).


Makes the competition count for more as I’m not going to win it!

[Tony_Muldoon]

A mix of the two.


Won't post casual rounds if
e.g. ....
wind is predicted to howl
greens spiked
ground sodden
if its a very easy mates affair
heavy rain means I just want to get it done
matchplay
an other reason.


Curiousity piqued so I checked.  Last year I recorded 34 of approx 100 rounds. Indice dropped 1.2

[Mark Pearce]

Indice dropped 1.2

What's an Indice?  Is it related to an index?

[Mark Pearce]

I think in two years I have recorded one general play round.  It felt like cheating, so I won't do it again.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

More importantly what do the rules of handicapping say in the UK?

If you're supposed to (required to) post your casual rounds as we are in the U.S. (so long as they're not solo, etc.), then you're in breach of the rules by not posting them.

But, some countries are still only posting certain rounds, like weekly comp rounds. So, what do the Rules of Handicapping say in the UK?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hi Erik,


I’m not sure if the rule is you “have” to or you are recommended to.


Whichever, it changed with the WHS 4 years’ ago. And many players - me included - choose to ignore it because we believe that handicaps should be formed from a controlled, competitive environment; and because we want to play casual golf without always having a card in hand.

[Thomas Dai]

A WHS administered and used on a different basis in different parts of the World doesn’t seem like a WHS to me.
Return to card, pencil, comp in the U.K. would be nice. Mind then you’d likely get folks with grifter hcps from elsewhere entering and getting priority spots at elite UK events.
Atb

[Niall C]

I'm pretty sure it's not a rule and I don't think it is even recommended. I think it is just something you can do if you want. As I've just joined a club after many years of not being a member I haven't played in any club comps since pre-WHS but I have played a lot of casual golf in that time. Off the top of my head I can think of only one golfer who I've played with who has kept a card every time we've played.


Anecdotally speaking, I'm not sure the system is all that popular and at one of my former clubs there is grumbling that the system is being abused. A case in point is one long standing member who has played off a 8 or 9 handicap for a good number of years and plays a lot of golf, has been putting in cards for casual rounds that have been in the 90's and then when the medal comes around he rediscovers his old form and duly picks up the first prize with his inflated handicap. He's been called out on it by other members but seems totally unabashed about it. Sadly the Committee are likely to get involved.


Of course that type of behaviour would be almost impossible if it was only competition scores that counted towards handicap.


Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

Of course that type of behaviour would be almost impossible if it was only competition scores that counted towards handicap.


Niall

Manipulation went on before the WHS and will go on no matter what changes are brought in.
Pretty sure there's analoagous behaviour in The Old Testament, Shakespeare, Machiavelli, Sun Zu, Wodehouse, Potter etc, etc.




What I miss from the old days is the adjustment made on the day to reflect how the course played. The Competion Scratch Score was frequently 2 shots different from the Standard Scratch Score. 
A links course on a windless day VS a day with a 15mph + wind might be 2 strokes different. A 25 mph + wind might be worth 4 shots.
Since WHS I've never seen my score adjusted to take this into account, even in Club Competions.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Hi Erik,

I’m not sure if the rule is you “have” to or you are recommended to.

Whichever, it changed with the WHS 4 years’ ago. And many players - me included - choose to ignore it because we believe that handicaps should be formed from a controlled, competitive environment; and because we want to play casual golf without always having a card in hand.

It is the player's responsibility to:

Player A player is expected to:Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage,

• Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole,

• Submit all acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability,

• Submit acceptable scores for handicap purposes as soon as possible after the round is completed and before midnight local time,

• Play by the Rules of Golf, and

• Certify the scores of other players.

Acceptable Score
A score from an authorized format of play which meets all the provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping (see Rule 2 Scores for Handicap Purposes).

https://static.whsplatform.englandgolf.org/clubs/1000-1/uploads/downloads/whs/2024-update/2024-rules-of-handicapping.pdf

https://www.englandgolf.org/world-handicap-system says social scores are now "allowed".


The reason why I ask is that I know in some countries or territories, only the "comp" rounds were allowed to be posted. The WHS, as I understand it, allows for countries to specify what "acceptable" scores are.


In the U.S., you're required to (per the list of requirements above) submit all acceptable scores. You're generally required to post your scores if you meet the other requirements (don't play three balls to practice, play with someone else, etc.). If you don't, your handicap index is by rule invalid/incorrect.

[Niall C]

Tony


Yes, there might have been an element of manipulation in the old days but the system in terms of medal comps, wasn't as open to abuse as the present system is. Match-play comps might be a different matter and anyone winning the class 2 or 3 match-play events usually should have been wearing a sombrero with a Colt 45 tucked into his belt.


The bigger issue for me though is not one or two people gaming the system and turning a genuine comp into a farce, but rather the effect that the new system has on golfing culture in this country. In that respect I'm heartened by what I've seen so far in terms of the majority of players eschewing the card and pencil mentality (ignoring cards kept for a stableford sweep) and just having a friendly game without the need to hole out/keep score etc on each and every hole. Not that it's all rosy as, again anecdotally, I'm hearing that medal day isn't as popular as it once was at some clubs, probably due to the type of characters I refer to above. That's a great shame IMO.


Niall 

[Mark Pearce]

Return to card, pencil, comp in the U.K. would be nice.

Well I certainly still fill in a card with a pencil when I play in a comp!  But I do like the ability to enter scores by App, and the live scoring element that technology provides.  Far too rarely I can spend an afternoon checking to see if I'm still leading/in second/in third......

[Michael Felton]

Hi Erik,

I’m not sure if the rule is you “have” to or you are recommended to.

Whichever, it changed with the WHS 4 years’ ago. And many players - me included - choose to ignore it because we believe that handicaps should be formed from a controlled, competitive environment; and because we want to play casual golf without always having a card in hand.

It is the player's responsibility to:

Player A player is expected to:Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage,

• Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole,

• Submit all acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability,

• Submit acceptable scores for handicap purposes as soon as possible after the round is completed and before midnight local time,

• Play by the Rules of Golf, and

• Certify the scores of other players.

Acceptable Score
A score from an authorized format of play which meets all the provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping (see Rule 2 Scores for Handicap Purposes).

https://static.whsplatform.englandgolf.org/clubs/1000-1/uploads/downloads/whs/2024-update/2024-rules-of-handicapping.pdf

https://www.englandgolf.org/world-handicap-system says social scores are now "allowed".


The reason why I ask is that I know in some countries or territories, only the "comp" rounds were allowed to be posted. The WHS, as I understand it, allows for countries to specify what "acceptable" scores are.


In the U.S., you're required to (per the list of requirements above) submit all acceptable scores. You're generally required to post your scores if you meet the other requirements (don't play three balls to practice, play with someone else, etc.). If you don't, your handicap index is by rule invalid/incorrect.

In the UK system you are allowed to submit a non-competition score, but in order to do so you have to declare in advance of the round that your score will be submitted and then you have to submit it. You can't start double, double and then decide not to post it. In the app, you put in that you are going to play a round for handicap purposes, then you go play, submit the score in the app together with a note about who your attester is. They then get a message from the app telling them they have to attest to that score. They do that and then the score is submitted. I'm not exactly sure what happens if you don't submit after saying that you will, but I imagine it won't work out well for your handicap status. It's not easy to game the system without help from someone else. Basically the same as when you play in a competition.


In the US, you can go play with three random people you don't know and then it's on you to submit the score - no oversight. That's the main difference there.

[Niall C]

Michael


I think the point Erik is making is that the rules either state or suggest depending on your interpretation, that we should be posting scores and that it isn't really optional. I don't think the wording is 100% clear but I'd agree that it does strongly suggest, to me at least, that we should be posting scores every time we play.


I didn't see anything in the documents with a clear and obvious caveat that exempted the UK or anywhere else but I only quickly scanned through them. However I vaguely remember that when they brought them in there was some chat about scoring being optional. I've also heard it said that in the UK there is a chance the current system will be binned or drastically altered but that might just be wishful thinking on the part of myself and others.


Niall 

[Michael Felton]

Michael


I think the point Erik is making is that the rules either state or suggest depending on your interpretation, that we should be posting scores and that it isn't really optional. I don't think the wording is 100% clear but I'd agree that it does strongly suggest, to me at least, that we should be posting scores every time we play.


I didn't see anything in the documents with a clear and obvious caveat that exempted the UK or anywhere else but I only quickly scanned through them. However I vaguely remember that when they brought them in there was some chat about scoring being optional. I've also heard it said that in the UK there is a chance the current system will be binned or drastically altered but that might just be wishful thinking on the part of myself and others.


Niall

I live in the US so I'm basically guessing about this, but I would think the UK would not want match play rounds to be used for handicap purposes. In the US, you do use those. I thought there was enough flexibility in the system to enable both of those to be true at the same time.

[Jerry Kluger]

Let me ask my UK friends how they treat this situation: I don't know if you call this a two ball competition but let's say you are playing two player teams with one best ball for each team, not alternate shot.  Does the player whose score does not count have to finish the hole and record a score for the hole for the round? Are golfers in the UK limited as to the maximum number of strokes they can take on a hole for handicap posting purposes?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I think the point Erik is making is that the rules either state or suggest depending on your interpretation, that we should be posting scores and that it isn't really optional. I don't think the wording is 100% clear but I'd agree that it does strongly suggest, to me at least, that we should be posting scores every time we play.

Yeah, in the U.S., that is definitely the rule. It is the responsibility of the player to post all acceptable scores.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Let me ask my UK friends how they treat this situation: I don't know if you call this a two ball competition but let's say you are playing two player teams with one best ball for each team, not alternate shot.  Does the player whose score does not count have to finish the hole and record a score for the hole for the round? Are golfers in the UK limited as to the maximum number of strokes they can take on a hole for handicap posting purposes?

Jerry,


Fourball competitions do not count for handicap so the answer to your first question is no, the non-counting player does not have to finish the hole. However, I’ve just discovered that - in Ireland anyway - they will count your score through some kind of pro-rata if the better-ball combined scores 42 Stableford points or better and you individually contribute to 9 or more of the scoring holes.


To your second point, the answer again is no. Although handicap usually converts your score in to Stableford and then back to gross (I.e. if I score a 7 on a par-4 where I have no stroke, it will give me a 6 as the best score that counts for zero Stableford points. If I had a stroke on that hole, it would give me a 7.)… so it’s a form of yes I guess.

[Chris Hughes]

Hi Erik,

I’m not sure if the rule is you “have” to or you are recommended to.

Whichever, it changed with the WHS 4 years’ ago. And many players - me included - choose to ignore it because we believe that handicaps should be formed from a controlled, competitive environment; and because we want to play casual golf without always having a card in hand.

Where is the line drawn in terms of which rules you deem to be proper vs. those to be ignored?

[Mark Pearce]

Hi Erik,

I’m not sure if the rule is you “have” to or you are recommended to.

Whichever, it changed with the WHS 4 years’ ago. And many players - me included - choose to ignore it because we believe that handicaps should be formed from a controlled, competitive environment; and because we want to play casual golf without always having a card in hand.

Where is the line drawn in terms of which rules you deem to be proper vs. those to be ignored?

It's neither a rule, nor a law, in the UK, so Ally isn't ignoring one.

[James Reader]

Hi Erik,

I’m not sure if the rule is you “have” to or you are recommended to.

Whichever, it changed with the WHS 4 years’ ago. And many players - me included - choose to ignore it because we believe that handicaps should be formed from a controlled, competitive environment; and because we want to play casual golf without always having a card in hand.

Where is the line drawn in terms of which rules you deem to be proper vs. those to be ignored?

To be clear, there is no requirement to submit general play scores in GB&I, nor is it even recommended. England Golf, for example, merely say that WHS “allows” a player to do this. Submitting GP scores when playing matchplay (a not-insignificant proportion of social golf rounds, I’d guess) is actively discouraged, not least because the “most likely score” feature hasn’t been adopted over here; if you’re submitting a score you have to do it under the full rules of strokeplay golf, so no gimmes and (technically at least) no saying “I can’t be bothered to go back to the tee for a lost ball” when there is still a chance of scoring better than a net double bogey.


What is being discussed is that clubs should be more active in encouraging golfers to submit scores from informal competitions (weekly roll-ups etc.).


Since WHS was implemented I’ve submitted nearly 150 scores, just one of which was a GP round (and that was only because my partner dropped out of a 4-ball competition, so I played on my own and marked a card for my playing partners) and not once have I been asked to attest a GP scores for someone else.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

To be clear, there is no requirement to submit general play scores in GB&I, nor is it even recommended.

I don't know that we agree on the language.

Among the player's responsibilities (requirements) is "Submit all acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability." An "acceptable score" is "A score from an authorized format of play which meets all the provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping (see Rule 2)." If you look at the "authorized format of play" table you'll see "General Play" is listed as an authorized format of play. The only real confusion is that later it says that you must still register to submit your score after a round of general play.

I know when the WHS first came out, some countries (or golf associations) were going to continue using only competitive rounds, but I think the WHS is slowly trying to push the rest of the world to align more with how the USGA has always done it. That way is to require all rounds played under the conditions to make them acceptable rounds (which again includes General Play).

The language reads to me that golfers in the UK should be posting General Play rounds, but because there's this additional step… they're kind of looking the other way for a little bit longer.

The quotes above are all from the England PDF I linked to earlier.

[Mark Pearce]

England Golf's website says: "The World Handicap System™ now allows golfers to register scores for handicapping purposes during a general play round. Acceptable scores include those played with friends, colleagues and in societies. You can now submit social scores directly via the My England Golf App."  It does not say that you must.  Very few club members do.  You can repeatedly point to what the website says, Erik, but you can't change the facts.  If you don't like what we're telling you, take it up with England golf, rather than telling us we're wrong.

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