OT UK Handicaps

[Mark Pearce]

As for “jingoistic”, rest assured that my opinion of you has absolutely nothing to do with your nationality.

Thank you, James.  I rarely laugh out loud these days.

[Mark Pearce]

If you're looking for a recent example, look at Mark calling it a "cheat's charter" despite the fact that it only harms the "cheater." 

Really?  Have you ever considered that players could record inaccurately high scores, pad their handicap and then win net competitions?  A genuine problem in many club open competitions here, even before general play scores were counted. 


Or what about the very low handicapper, who fails to gain entry to an elite competition, where entry is decided by the lowest handicaps, where a player does get in with an artificially low handicap (this has happened locally here recently).


Which is not to say that handicap manipulation wasn't possible under CONGU (I once had a playing partner in a minor medal turn round on the 15th tee and comment "I'm scoring quite well here, Pearcey, better start tapping it around on the greens"), but it was harder (and obviously impossible without cheating in the other direction).

[Adam Lawrence]

In the UK, most friendly games are played between friends and are most likely to be match play.

From all I've read, that's changed quite a bit in the last 20 years, and I'd be curious to know how often that happens now as compared to a long time ago, particularly among younger golfers. I'm not saying stroke play is the majority, just that all I've seen is that it's increasing in popularity quite a bit.

Anecdotes are not evidence, but I have never in my life played a social round at stroke play, always either a match or an informal Stableford. I only have one friend who plays stroke play for leisure. Although, interestingly, he has only taken the game up in the last couple of years, so perhaps there is a trend that way. Bloody small sample though 

[Sean_A]

I have definitely seen a trend of the 30s-40s scoring a card even when playing matchplay. We even have a retired chap in this parish who has started this evil practice. I have taken to walking to the next tee and playing rather than watching guys practice on my time.

I long for the true American system to kick in over here. We are 2/3rds there…may as well go whole hog. Out of the hole, guesstimate a score and move on. It’s just a bloody handicap for hacker amateurs. It’s taken way too seriously. Real players play flat and anyone who plays for real money has their own handicap system.

Ciao

[Daryl David]

“Real players play flat and anyone who plays for real money has their own handicap system”


Amen. The group I play in 3 days a week don’t even know what their GHIN index is. We have our own system. That’s the index they care about. Only scores in the “game” count. Nothing else.

[Rob Marshall]

When I asked the question I didn't expect this and I was just looking for someone from the UK to let me know what they were doing because a friend insisted that the UK posted scores the way we do in the states.


I would say that the UK system is the system that makes the most sense. Play by the rules and all putts are holed. How can you get a truer handicap?  However I loved this.....


"Real players play flat"

Is there anything better than playing straight up scratch golf?

[Mark Pearce]

Real players play flat and anyone who plays for real money has their own handicap system.

Real "Real Players" play in very high quality amateur events where a low handicap is required for entry.  So this comment ignores that, for elite amateurs, handicaps are very important.

[Mark Pearce]

So few people seem to be able to play to their handicaps when everyone is playing by the rules.

Your index is an average of the best 8 of 20 last recorded scores.  Even assuming an even distribution of scores in that 8 (and, in reality, there'll be a smaller number of lower scores) that would mean that you would not expect a player to play "to their handicap" more than 4 times in 20 or once in five.  In reality, the proportion will be lower than that, particularly amongst higher handicaps.


Why do people expect that players should "play to their handicap"?

[Michael Felton]

Real players play flat and anyone who plays for real money has their own handicap system.

Real "Real Players" play in very high quality amateur events where a low handicap is required for entry.  So this comment ignores that, for elite amateurs, handicaps are very important.

That certainly used to be true in the UK - I'm not sure if it still works that way in everything. In the US, the exemptions into big events are typically based on WAGR, not handicap and qualifiers are used for everyone not exempt - there may be a handicap requirement to enter, but if you're planning on qualifying, then reaching the handicap cut off shouldn't be too strenuous.

[Mark Pearce]

Real players play flat and anyone who plays for real money has their own handicap system.

Real "Real Players" play in very high quality amateur events where a low handicap is required for entry.  So this comment ignores that, for elite amateurs, handicaps are very important.

That certainly used to be true in the UK - I'm not sure if it still works that way in everything. In the US, the exemptions into big events are typically based on WAGR, not handicap and qualifiers are used for everyone not exempt - there may be a handicap requirement to enter, but if you're planning on qualifying, then reaching the handicap cut off shouldn't be too strenuous.

It's not the case for competitions where enough players with WAGR points enter, maybe, but there are still a lot of quite serious amateur open competitions where entry is restricted to certain handicaps and, if there are more entrants than places, those go to the lowest handicaps.  Perhaps not, any more, the very top events but at a level that is certainly real "real" golf, in a way that Daryl's three times a week money game may struggle to be.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Have you ever considered that players could record inaccurately high scores, pad their handicap and then win net competitions?

If you're intent on cheating, you can cheat by missing some putts in a comp, hitting a ball or three OB, etc. I feel as though the context with posting casual rounds was that players aren't playing serious golf and having to deal with the pressure, taking gimmes, etc. That's only going to generally lower their index.

Or what about the very low handicapper, who fails to gain entry to an elite competition, where entry is decided by the lowest handicaps, where a player does get in with an artificially low handicap (this has happened locally here recently).

That can and does happen, yes.

Which is not to say that handicap manipulation wasn't possible under CONGU (I once had a playing partner in a minor medal turn round on the 15th tee and comment "I'm scoring quite well here, Pearcey, better start tapping it around on the greens"), but it was harder (and obviously impossible without cheating in the other direction).

Right, it's still possible. And if the guy's intent is to inflate his index he's not going to wait until the 15th and make it so obvious.

Anecdotes are not evidence, but I have never in my life played a social round at stroke play, always either a match or an informal Stableford. I only have one friend who plays stroke play for leisure. Although, interestingly, he has only taken the game up in the last couple of years, so perhaps there is a trend that way. Bloody small sample though 

I'd love to see how this trend has shifted over the last 20 years in the UK and the rest of Europe. Though I think match play is still king, I think stroke play (including Stableford) is on the rise and I wonder when it may overtake match play.

It’s just a bloody handicap for hacker amateurs.

Except for the "entry into events" stuff… yeah.

[Rob Marshall]

Real players play flat and anyone who plays for real money has their own handicap system.

Real "Real Players" play in very high quality amateur events where a low handicap is required for entry.  So this comment ignores that, for elite amateurs, handicaps are very important.

Mark,
What is your definition of elite? If you are a 2 and play in the city championship are you considering that elite? Is a division 3 college player elite? I've played in many scratch tournaments and never have considered myself elite.

[Rob Marshall]

"Or what about the very low handicapper, who fails to gain entry to an elite competition, where entry is decided by the lowest handicaps, where a player does get in with an artificially low handicap (this has happened locally here recently)."

Qualifiers solve this issue don't they? That's what they did many years ago in my district championship. Went to a qualifier. No issues.

[Mark Pearce]

Real players play flat and anyone who plays for real money has their own handicap system.

Real "Real Players" play in very high quality amateur events where a low handicap is required for entry.  So this comment ignores that, for elite amateurs, handicaps are very important.

Mark,
What is your definition of elite? If you are a 2 and play in the city championship are you considering that elite? Is a division 3 college player elite? I've played in many scratch tournaments and never have considered myself elite.

The players I have in mind have a "+" in front of their index.  So not super elite, but competing at a near national level.

[Mark Pearce]

I feel as though the context with posting casual rounds was that players aren't playing serious golf and having to deal with the pressure, taking gimmes, etc.

That might have been your context but I don't think it was the context on this side of the pond, where the fact that rounds were played in competition and with attestation was just as important.


Have we established that lack of attestation, at least, can harm more than the "cheater" (in the case of artificially low handicaps at the scratch and better level, I'm very comfortable with that word)?

[Michael Felton]

"Or what about the very low handicapper, who fails to gain entry to an elite competition, where entry is decided by the lowest handicaps, where a player does get in with an artificially low handicap (this has happened locally here recently)."

Qualifiers solve this issue don't they? That's what they did many years ago in my district championship. Went to a qualifier. No issues.

They do and they work fine for big events. In the NY Metro area, the major events all have qualifiers, but there are maybe 600-1,000 people all wanting to play in it and that's a good way to break it down. The Long Island stuff they tend to just have the event. Maybe 200 people looking to play and a field of 150. It's hard to justify a qualifier for that, especially when you need to find a course willing to host them and people willing to officiate them etc. It's already a relatively full schedule. LI events are just first come first served provided your handicap is below the cut off. UK events they accept all applications and then just cut off the highest handicaps until they reach their field size. I know the cut off varied quite a bit. If the Surrey County Champs were at Sunningdale, you might need to be 0.5 to get in. If it was at a more run of the mill place then 3.5 might be good enough.

[Ian Cox]

I’ve skimmed (and in some cases scrutinised) the posts in this thread, there appears to be a relevant item that has not been explored… EG’s acceptable formats for scorecard intent to be created… matchplay has been referred to, and correctly identified as not acceptable, though four ball better ball has not (apologies if I missed the post), FBBB is not acceptable for general play submission (it was included in a 2024 update for competition play), as such, and without a shadow of a doubt this absolutely disqualifies the vast majority of golfers considering posting a general play round to EG ineligible for posting. IC

[Jerry Kluger]

I am simply at a loss as to what the question is here other than there are some who don't like the change in handicap computation and have chosen to ignore it.  They can do so but how is this any different than any other means of not following the rules? If one's club or organization wants to have different rules for playing in their competition they are free to do so , i.e. the club has chosen to only include rounds played in stroke play competitions in computing handicaps for their events which is perfectly fine but a player who chooses to play at another club's competition must follow their rules which may include following the current guidelines.

[James Reader]

I am simply at a loss as to what the question is here other than there are some who don't like the change in handicap computation and have chosen to ignore it.  They can do so but how is this any different than any other means of not following the rules? If one's club or organization wants to have different rules for playing in their competition they are free to do so , i.e. the club has chosen to only include rounds played in stroke play competitions in computing handicaps for their events which is perfectly fine but a player who chooses to play at another club's competition must follow their rules which may include following the current guidelines.

Sorry Jerry. I’m not clear. Who do you think has chosen to ignore the change?

[Mark Pearce]

I am simply at a loss as to what the question is here other than there are some who don't like the change in handicap computation and have chosen to ignore it.  They can do so but how is this any different than any other means of not following the rules? If one's club or organization wants to have different rules for playing in their competition they are free to do so , i.e. the club has chosen to only include rounds played in stroke play competitions in computing handicaps for their events which is perfectly fine but a player who chooses to play at another club's competition must follow their rules which may include following the current guidelines.

Sorry, Jerry, I have no idea what you are talking about?  Who has chosen to ignore the rules?  England Golf?  Who are responsible for the rules?  That, err, doesn't make any sense at all?

[Wayne_Kozun]

I have definitely seen a trend of the 30s-40s scoring a card even when playing matchplay. We even have a retired chap in this parish who has started this evil practice. I have taken to walking to the next tee and playing rather than watching guys practice on my time.

Don't lots of younger players use technology to record a score with an app like Golfshot, or club sensors like Arccos? I have done that for a decade or more and I see other doing the same. Here in Canada our governing body, Golf Canada, has released an app that uses GPS to give yardages and keeps your score, facilitating uploading to the central system.


Another advantage of submitting every score, at least when they are hole by hole scores, is it allows for better data collection for which hole gets which stroke allocation.

[Jerry Kluger]

I thought that some were in disagreement with the changes in handicap calculation which is to now include all rounds except those that are pure practice playing multiple balls, etc. The statements I thought made it their position that only stroke play competitions should be included in handicap calculations.  If I am incorrect then I am sorry for any misstatements on my part.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I am simply at a loss as to what the question is here other than there are some who don't like the change in handicap computation and have chosen to ignore it.  They can do so but how is this any different than any other means of not following the rules? If one's club or organization wants to have different rules for playing in their competition they are free to do so , i.e. the club has chosen to only include rounds played in stroke play competitions in computing handicaps for their events which is perfectly fine but a player who chooses to play at another club's competition must follow their rules which may include following the current guidelines.

Jerry,

It is not a rule. You are not obliged to post casual rounds. It's as simple as that.

Quote from England Golf:
The World Handicap System™ now allows golfers to register scores for handicapping purposes during a general play round.

From the WHS FAQ at England Golf:

Q: Do I have to record all scores?
A: Players should submit all singles competition scores and have the ability to pre-register and
submit scores from social games played in accordance with the rules of golf. Accuracy of a player’s
Handicap Index will be improved the greater the number of scorecards submitted.

From Golf Ireland:

Pre-register your round
A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit
an acceptable 9-hole or 18-hole score in general play for
handicap purposes.
Registration must be done prior to the start of play and
should be done in the manner established by the Handicap
Committee or national association.


If it were mandatory to record all casual rounds, there would be no requirement to pre-register the intention to submit a score for a casual round; it would be taken for granted that all casual rounds are to be submitted, therefore no pre-registering would be needed.


Same procedure described at Golf England:

How do I submit a social score?
To post a general play score from any venue, a golfer is required to:

Pre-register the round with the host club.
This can be done on the My England Golf App, via the club’s own computer software or by simply telling the Pro/Club Manager of an intention to submit a score
Play and enjoy the round in accordance with the Rules of Golf
Enter the score using the My England Golf App or ask the host club to enter the score on your behalf either onto the WHS™ platform or their club software

If the vast majority of golfers in the GB&I were flaunting such a rule, we would have heard about it by now. There is no rule.

[Jerry Kluger]

Okay, I stand corrected. It does then make me wonder why a player would post a non-competition round as I think it would be generally accepted that you are likely to score better in a non-competition round. 


I know this is off topic but I believe related: you are not allowed to post a score if you use a rangefinder/laser with the slope feature or any other feature other than distance measuring turned on.  So many people I play with believe you can have those features on unless it is a competition round. (At least in the US)

[David_Tepper]

One of the several differences between U.S. and GB&I golfing cultures is that golf clubs in GB&I hold monthly medals, where golfers play a formal stroke-play round, holing every putt and having their scores attested. This gives a GB&I golfer 8-10 chances a year to post a score to establish/maintain a handicap.


Very few clubs in the U.S. (at least the ones I am familiar with) have regular stroke-play events like this. In fact, very few U.S. clubs have formal events where individuals post a medal score. Almost all tournament play at clubs in the U.S. is either match play, better ball play or foursomes play.


This accounts for some of the different opinions/perspectives here.     

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