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mike_malone

Nae wind nae golf.
« on: March 15, 2025, 03:20:07 PM »
The architecture is changed randomly by the wind or can you design for it ?
AKA Mayday

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Nae wind nae golf.
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2025, 03:28:49 PM »
The architecture is changed randomly by the wind or can you design for it ?
Luck and skill are two vectors of design, and not opposites of each other. Increasing the wind simply increase the impact of luck in the design. Here's the old thread I made about it. You can absolutely account for it in design by adding and removing penal elements. I'm not sure if you can design a course that is anti-penal in wind (where the course becomes easier when the winds are up), but perhaps a course can be designed with tee and pin positions that deliberately take many of the more penal elements out of play in cases of high winds.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2025, 03:33:24 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

mike_malone

Re: Nae wind nae golf.
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2025, 03:39:20 PM »
The architecture is changed randomly by the wind or can you design for it ?



Luck and skill are two vectors of design, and not opposites of each other. Increasing the wind simply increase the impact of luck in the design. Here's the old thread I made about it. You can absolutely account for it in design by adding and removing penal elements. I'm not sure if you can design a course that is anti-penal in wind (where the course becomes easier when the winds are up), but perhaps a course can be designed with tee and pin positions that deliberately take many of the more penal elements out of play in cases of high winds.


I like this
AKA Mayday

Jeff Schley

Re: Nae wind nae golf.
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2025, 03:43:27 PM »
I'd say width off the tee and add at least half the green open for the ground game.  Changing where the tee boxes are to account for into/downwind can be manipulated to an extent, but I think width is more a factor for amateurs.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tom_Doak

Re: Nae wind nae golf.
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 07:08:03 PM »
I'd say width off the tee and add at least half the green open for the ground game.  Changing where the tee boxes are to account for into/downwind can be manipulated to an extent, but I think width is more a factor for amateurs.


100%

Sven Nilsen

Re: Nae wind nae golf.
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 07:20:45 PM »
I'm not sure if you can design a course that is anti-penal in wind (where the course becomes easier when the winds are up), but perhaps a course can be designed with tee and pin positions that deliberately take many of the more penal elements out of play in cases of high winds.


Think about a wide but not very deep green with trouble long.  When there is no wind or downwind, an approach shot needs to be stopped rather quickly.  It becomes a much easier shot when the wind is up and into you.


The 8th at Pac Dunes (to a left or middle pin) is a good example of this.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Nae wind nae golf.
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 10:01:00 PM »
Think about a wide but not very deep green with trouble long.  When there is no wind or downwind, an approach shot needs to be stopped rather quickly.  It becomes a much easier shot when the wind is up and into you.

The 8th at Pac Dunes (to a left or middle pin) is a good example of this.

Wow, this is really clever and I wouldn't have thought of it. Still a tough shot given the adjustment, but a well struck shot into a consistent headwind should have a narrower dispersion pattern, even if it likely ends up be wider due to exaggerated hooks/slices. Really interesting design idea, kudos.

Wayne_Kozun

Re: Nae wind nae golf.
« Reply #7 on: Today at 01:09:18 PM »
Does course setup play a part?  Design for the regular wind, but if the wind blows from the opposite direction then move tees forward on holes into the wind and move them back on holes where the wind is helping.

Joe Hancock

Re: Nae wind nae golf.
« Reply #8 on: Today at 02:51:29 PM »
Does course setup play a part?  Design for the regular wind, but if the wind blows from the opposite direction then move tees forward on holes into the wind and move them back on holes where the wind is helping.


Or, sometimes do the opposite of this.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom_Doak

Re: Nae wind nae golf.
« Reply #9 on: Today at 03:52:00 PM »
Think about a wide but not very deep green with trouble long.  When there is no wind or downwind, an approach shot needs to be stopped rather quickly.  It becomes a much easier shot when the wind is up and into you.

The 8th at Pac Dunes (to a left or middle pin) is a good example of this.

Wow, this is really clever and I wouldn't have thought of it. Still a tough shot given the adjustment, but a well struck shot into a consistent headwind should have a narrower dispersion pattern, even if it likely ends up be wider due to exaggerated hooks/slices. Really interesting design idea, kudos.


Thank you.  ;)

Tom_Doak

Re: Nae wind nae golf.
« Reply #10 on: Today at 03:53:56 PM »
Does course setup play a part?  Design for the regular wind, but if the wind blows from the opposite direction then move tees forward on holes into the wind and move them back on holes where the wind is helping.


In general, I don't like when course management is expected to move tees around in order to neutralize the effects of the wind.  A good course will work in all wind conditions.  Some holes may be much harder, some may play much shorter [but not necessarily easier].


The maintenance staff should concentrate more on choosing hole locations that work in the expected wind.

Jim_Coleman

Re: Nae wind nae golf.
« Reply #11 on: Today at 04:00:11 PM »
    Wasn’t the Ocean Course designed so the tees would be adjusted depending on wind direction?

Kalen Braley

Re: Nae wind nae golf.
« Reply #12 on: Today at 04:50:36 PM »
This thread made me think of the very windy conditions at TPC Sawgrass, at least on Saturday.

Seems like there is very little elasticity to accommodate those conditions and some massive individual hole scores were put up.  Was this on purpose and was Pete secretly hoping it would be windy when the pros were in town to make the slaughter that much worse? :D

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