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Kyle Harris

Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« on: Yesterday at 11:17:59 AM »
Title says it all.

Did Ross ever turn down a project? Or actively move it to one of his associates without credit?

The only instance I can think of where an architect recommended another for a project was Tillinghast to Philadelphia Country Club advocating for William Flynn.

I'm sure there are other examples and perhaps this can generate some interesting discussion about the architecture market back in the earlier eras.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

Bret Lawrence

Re: Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 11:34:16 AM »
He said No to the back nine at Dedham Country & Polo Club.  There is a scathing letter from Ross to one of his friends about Dedham and how they chose Fowler to build the back nine.  Fowler never finished the work and went back to England, so the club asked Ross to come in and finish the work.  Ross didn’t seem happy about their choice of Fowler and he said something along the lines of He didn’t feel like cleaning up Fowler’s mess.  Shortly after, the club hired Seth Raynor to finish the back nine!

Kyle Harris

Re: Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 11:37:11 AM »
He said No to the back nine at Dedham Country & Polo Club.  There is a scathing letter from Ross to one of his friends about Dedham and how they chose Fowler to build the back nine.  Fowler never finished the work and went back to England, so the club asked Ross to come in and finish the work.  Ross didn’t seem happy about their choice of Fowler and he said something along the lines of He didn’t feel like cleaning up Fowler’s mess.  Shortly after, the club hired Seth Raynor to finish the back nine!

Oh, tasty!
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

Sven Nilsen

Re: Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 11:59:04 AM »
If setting a rate for services that is going to preclude certain clients from asking for your services can be equated to saying no, the answer is yes.


DR's rates were widely reported on and known throughout the country. 


By all accounts Ross was a man of principle.  I doubt he was going to take on a project, whatever the scope thereof, if he couldn't fully meet the client's expectations.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mark_Fine

Re: Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 12:14:02 PM »
Sven,
What is the difference between saying “I doubt he was going to take on a project” vs saying, “He probably didn’t visit the site”?  Both are estimated guesses  ;)
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 01:11:08 PM by Mark_Fine »

Sven Nilsen

Re: Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 12:37:11 PM »
Sven,
What is the difference between saying “I doubt he was going to take on a project” vs saying, “He probably didn’t visit the site”?  Both a estimated guesses  ;)


One is a much more educated guess than the other.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mark_Fine

Re: Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 01:13:59 PM »
I will pass your response on to Brad  ;)   There is a reason he doesn’t frequent this site and join in these discussions and he knows this one is going on.

Ryan Book

Re: Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 04:36:52 PM »
It seems from my gleanings from the wayside (not a Ross reference) that Ross rarely hesitated to provide paid consulting services in instances where clients didn't have the money for proper design work. One instance came during my chat with the GM at Kebo Valley, who brushed off any claim that Ross was a designer there; rather, during leaner times, he provided a few notes on agronomy and suggested moving one green. It doesn't seem such dealings are as publicized as Tillinghast's PGA tour.


I wonder if these minor inputs resulted in so many alleged Ross "designs" popping up, the product of exaggerating such visits.
"Cops are an abomination." - C.B. Macdonald and/or Jello Biafra

@BethpageBlackMetal

Kyle Harris

Re: Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 05:06:53 PM »
It seems from my gleanings from the wayside (not a Ross reference) that Ross rarely hesitated to provide paid consulting services in instances where clients didn't have the money for proper design work. One instance came during my chat with the GM at Kebo Valley, who brushed off any claim that Ross was a designer there; rather, during leaner times, he provided a few notes on agronomy and suggested moving one green. It doesn't seem such dealings are as publicized as Tillinghast's PGA tour.


I wonder if these minor inputs resulted in so many alleged Ross "designs" popping up, the product of exaggerating such visits.


This tracks with some of the mythos surrounding misattributed Ross courses in Florida.

I believe he may have provided recommendations on construction services, too. Every misattributed Ross in Florida seems to have, at worst, two degrees of separation from an actual Ross.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

Tom_Doak

Re: Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« Reply #9 on: Today at 01:35:16 PM »
Kyle:


It’s a very interesting topic you raise.


I think in the Golden Age, architects and clients had different expectations than today, and our view is skewed by today’s market.  Maybe someone was put off by Donald Ross’s stated price, but not like today when lots of projects start out thinking “we can’t afford Jack Nicklaus so who do we call?”


Most business people (and Donald Ross was a business person) will offer some sort of introductory services as a way of qualifying new leads, and it sounds above like Ross indeed did that.  The Dedham thing sounds like they passed him over for Fowler originally and he had no interest in working with those people.


98% of architects will take any job where the client agrees to their price and I am only sure of two architects today who you can’t say that about.

Sven Nilsen

Re: Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« Reply #10 on: Today at 01:47:07 PM »
Tom:


Here is the actual letter regarding Dedham.  This should give you some clarification and erase the need for suppositions.


Sven


"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Kyle Harris

Re: Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« Reply #11 on: Today at 02:10:06 PM »
Kyle:


It’s a very interesting topic you raise.


I think in the Golden Age, architects and clients had different expectations than today, and our view is skewed by today’s market.  Maybe someone was put off by Donald Ross’s stated price, but not like today when lots of projects start out thinking “we can’t afford Jack Nicklaus so who do we call?”


Most business people (and Donald Ross was a business person) will offer some sort of introductory services as a way of qualifying new leads, and it sounds above like Ross indeed did that.  The Dedham thing sounds like they passed him over for Fowler originally and he had no interest in working with those people.


98% of architects will take any job where the client agrees to their price and I am only sure of two architects today who you can’t say that about.

It sometimes gets lost or forgotten that Donald Ross was, first and foremost, a golf professional. Yes, he may have focused on construction and design, but we can state that he was in it for the money with absolute certainty. No businessperson is going to outright turn down income, especially if he can hire or contracto qualified people to keep clients happy. Ross seems to have had enough people in his orbit to never actually have to turn down work.

I wonder if he ever had any dissatisfied clients?

One thing I note is that all these articles Sven is posting about Ross's involvement beg a perhaps unanswerable question... what exactly did Ross do? A site visit before construction? Generate plans? Provide those plans and a list of contractors to the client? They seem laden with words like "confer" and "tour" and the like. I've never read a local newspaper that didn't hype up a local project. And Ross built more would-be "finest courses in this district" than anyone.

If so, the statement that Ross may never have seen X amount of his golf courses is true, because the only time he was ever on site was before it was a golf course!
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

Andrew Harvie

Re: Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« Reply #12 on: Today at 02:14:57 PM »
Tom:


Here is the actual letter regarding Dedham.  This should give you some clarification and erase the need for suppositions.


Sven





woof!
Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

Tom_Doak

Re: Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« Reply #13 on: Today at 03:45:25 PM »
Kyle:


There are a lot of golf architects back then who never saw the finished version of some of their courses: 


Everything Alison did in Japan
A lot of what Colt did in Europe
Crystal Downs, Augusta and Royal Melbourne for MacKenzie


When I had only built ten courses it was easy to go back, but now that I’ve done 40+ (and am adding 2-3 per year), who has time to go back? 


And what difference does that make?  The routing and the construction supervision are the work, and Donald Ross was very proficient at delivering quality results, however he achieved them.  I don’t think there is much disagreement that he worked his ass off.

Sean_A

Re: Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« Reply #14 on: Today at 04:22:36 PM »
Tom:

Here is the actual letter regarding Dedham.  This should give you some clarification and erase the need for suppositions.


Sven




Strikes me as a petty letter. Why would Ross think he should be called upon first to complete a further nine holes? If this is a tell the story letter, shouldn’t Ross say he was guaranteed a first call if such a guarantee was made?

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Kyle Harris

Re: Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?
« Reply #15 on: Today at 05:12:45 PM »
Tom:


No, It doesn't make a difference to the end user.


Academically there is a lot of parsing going on in the other thread of what words mean, which is nothing new when analyzing these older arcticles.

What is interesting to me is that Ross set up an excellent system all the same. Especially when considering that an early contemporary (and countrymen) of his, Willie Park, Jr., did not and likely succumbed to exhaustion due to all the travel in the early 1920s. I think it's also worth exploring or even speculating if Ross setting up a system for accepting so much work influenced his designs or not.

Which would make the projects he rejected all the more interesting!


http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

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