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Bob Montle

Ideal Green Speed?
« on: Yesterday at 02:53:49 PM »

I prefer lots of contours with obvious break, but slow enough that you can stop an uphill putt on a majority of the green.

Most young golfers that I know want the greens as fast as possible, and enjoy seeing putts breaking 30 ft and rolling 40 yards off the green, or rolling up to the cup and then rolling back down for 20 feet.

Tom Doak's greens seem just about perfect to me, but I also enjoy playing Macrihanish with the four foot mounds and correspondingly slow rolling greens.
What are your thoughts?
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Charlie Goerges

Re: Ideal Green Speed?
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 03:32:49 PM »

I prefer lots of contours with obvious break, but slow enough that you can stop an uphill putt on a majority of the green.

Most young golfers that I know want the greens as fast as possible, and enjoy seeing putts breaking 30 ft and rolling 40 yards off the green, or rolling up to the cup and then rolling back down for 20 feet.

Tom Doak's greens seem just about perfect to me, but I also enjoy playing Macrihanish with the four foot mounds and correspondingly slow rolling greens.
What are your thoughts?




I agree, I've been playing most of my golf lately on a mom & pop with slow greens and hard/long fairways and it is a superior way to play the game in my opinion. Lots of bounce and run and a 40-foot putt requires a decent rap. It's just a shame there isn't more contour, but I can't have everything I guess.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Thomas Dai

Re: Ideal Green Speed?
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 03:37:57 PM »
Trueness of roll and firmness over speed.
Atb

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Ideal Green Speed?
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 03:39:31 PM »
I have an admittedly ambitious generalized theory of green speeds, which I see as exceedingly difficult to communicate because it relies on multiple variables and is course dependent.

To start, I'm assuming we all agree that consistency is paramount, and so when we are talking about green behavior, we assume it's consistent across an entire course. After that we have the inherent conflict between the strategic school and the penal school, and I'm firmly in the strategic school as I expect most of us are, so much of what follows is likely not particularly relevant to the penal school, in which greens should be generally straightforward to reward the player for reaching the green as directly as possible. I think for the penal school: faster -> flatter, and faster & flatter = better.

With that out of the way, the first point I want to make about higher green speeds is that, on the putting surface, contours should be effectively relative to green speeds insofar as making the ball move. Generally speaking the coefficient of kinetic friction can be compensated for simply by reducing the amount of potential energy, and we this by reducing the height of the contours. There is a major difference here in the amount of static friction, which I do not think is proportional, so getting the ball to stop will be more difficult on faster greens, which means it's wildly more important to be below the hole on faster greens, even if the contours were proportional to create the same types of putts. This means for an existing green, increasing the green speed should increase the difficulty, which is why I think it's so tempting for folks to chase faster speeds.

Most importantly though, with faster greens, there is a maximum height of contours possible before the green becomes unpinnable, and as the size of the contours increase, the pinnable area shrinks.

That's the naive view of green speed... where we look at greens from the perspective of already being on the green. Where it gets interesting is when we start to consider the effect of contouring on approach shots:

Generally speaking, higher shots have more distance control than lower shots. This seems to be a dominant strategy in golf (we hit a wedge into greens instead of a running shot, because we have more control over where it ends up, thus a smaller dispersion pattern). Also generally speaking, the only counter to high-shot dominance is high winds, and this is one of the reason why I think links golf has remained so relevant and consistent over the years, even while many parkland courses have inflated in length.

However, if we wanted to, we could actually use contouring to favor running shots over high shots. This can be achieved because the velocity vector of a ball contacting the green from above is extremely different from one contacting the green from along the ground. Here, the same large contour that will eject a high shot off the green could funnel a low shot onto it, and the opposite could be true depending on the shaping. This effect is magnified with the height of the contouring. The larger the contours, the more the architect can incentivize and disincentivize different launch angles from the player. I see this as a massive benefit to course design, as it creates another variable with which to test the player.

Here, on strategic courses, especially ones where high winds are not prevalent, since we do not have any high shot specific hazards, if we want to increase the strategic benefits of different approach positions to different pins, we ought to run the greens as slow as is practicable, as long as we don't creating genuine problems with the static frictional forces being so high that putts stop being generally consistent. By doing this, we should be able to give the architect additional tools to create risk/reward payoffs to playing the same hole in different ways, where they can make a running shot more valuable to certain parts of the green, and a high shot more valuable to others.

The biggest issue with this view of green speeds is that it's really only relevant to potential courses, not existing courses with existing greens, so you can't really think of it by thinking of an existing green complex and adjusting the green speed for different outcomes, because you'd have to literally adjust the height of the contours fairly significantly to understand the value of slower green speeds.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:19:12 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Craig Sweet

Re: Ideal Green Speed?
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 05:09:07 PM »
Matt...that's a lot to digest....However, maintenance cost go up as HOC goes down and green speeds go up.  You might say that the "ideal" green speed depends on what you can afford.

Jim_Coleman

Re: Ideal Green Speed?
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 05:15:14 PM »
   I play on a 1926 Flynn course with well pitched back to front greens. 10.5 to 11 is great for tournament play. Any faster is too fast. 10 is great for every day play. Any slower isn’t as much fun.

Charlie Goerges

Re: Ideal Green Speed?
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 05:17:27 PM »
I'm glad you're thinking about it Matt, but honestly, I don't even think it needs to be rewarded, just make it possible.


I'm not even that worried about true-ness of roll or consistency. True enough and consistent enough is good enough.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

John Emerson

Re: Ideal Green Speed?
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 07:00:03 PM »
Trueness of roll and firmness over speed.
Atb


But an increase in both trueness and firmness will result in increased speed.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

John Emerson

Re: Ideal Green Speed?
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 07:06:03 PM »
Matt...that's a lot to digest....However, maintenance cost go up as HOC goes down and green speeds go up.  You might say that the "ideal" green speed depends on what you can afford.
I would say this idea is loosely and generally correct, but with modern methods of putting green management (ie: precision accuracy of growth and nitrogen management) faster green speeds are attainable at far lower costs compared with traditional/historical methods of putting green management.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Ideal Green Speed?
« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 08:18:47 PM »
I'm glad you're thinking about it Matt, but honestly, I don't even think it needs to be rewarded, just make it possible.
I'm assuming you're talking about the ground game here? If so, I would repeat one of my axioms in life: people respond to incentives.

When I say the aerial game is the dominant strategy, I mean that in the game-theoretic sense. That is, until we change the payoff structure (by changing the design of courses), on the vast majority of courses it will always be better to play the aerial game if you're trying to get a low score. It might be fun to play the ground game, but if you're trying to win a match, it's aerial game all day (outside of high winds). By changing green complexes to be more friendly to lower lofted shots, while at the same time being more hazardous to higher lofted shots, we can change this dynamic. To do that, we need to slow the greens down just enough to support the dramatic contours on greens that are required to deflect both ideal rollout angles (for long par fours and fives) or steeper decent angles (to add some defense against wedges).

Remember, the point isn't to remove the aerial game by punishing it (optionality is always a good thing); it's only to be able to create some number of pin positions that are optimized for the ground game. I only want to add a bit of risk to folks who live by their carry distances, and present them with a situation where they might want to step out of their comfort zone.

Chris Hughes

Re: Ideal Green Speed?
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 08:52:22 PM »
How do we define "fast" and "slow"?


I've never been a member of a club that actually posted stimp readings, ever.  Obviously we can easily discern "fast" vs. "slow" on a daily basis but I'd have no idea what the corresponding stimp number is.


Are many of you seeing clubs publish stimp readings now?
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Phil Young

Re: Ideal Green Speed?
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 09:08:03 PM »
If my putt goes in the hole that is the ideal green speed!

Jim Sherma

Re: Ideal Green Speed?
« Reply #12 on: Today at 10:21:56 AM »
Fast greens are not conducive to the ground game at all. Firm and slower is what is necessary. If one has a tough time getting a 30 foot putt to stop where you want it to what hope do you have for a bump 7-iron from 110 yards. Many of the firmest courses I've played overseas had greens that were actually slower than some of the fairway surrounds. Once the greens get fast enough the only way to consistently get the ball to stop where you would like is something with height and spin, that includes both chips and full shots.

Simon Barrington

Re: Ideal Green Speed?
« Reply #13 on: Today at 10:42:09 AM »
Fast greens are not conducive to the ground game at all. Firm and slower is what is necessary. If one has a tough time getting a 30 foot putt to stop where you want it to what hope do you have for a bump 7-iron from 110 yards. Many of the firmest courses I've played overseas had greens that were actually slower than some of the fairway surrounds. Once the greens get fast enough the only way to consistently get the ball to stop where you would like is something with height and spin, that includes both chips and full shots.
Wise words.

The R&A kept Troon at 10 for The Open, strikes me that if they hadn't, with the weather that came in, the course might have been "unplayable" at faster speeds.

As others have said the agronomic inputs to speed up greens rise exponentially...as do the playing times for golfers (regardless of standard).

The Open speed i.e. 10ft shouldn't just be the standard, perhaps it should be a limit...just because we can go faster does it mean we should, we have speed limits on roads...but who will step up to regulate that one?...

Charlie Goerges

Re: Ideal Green Speed?
« Reply #14 on: Today at 10:47:30 AM »
Fast greens are not conducive to the ground game at all. Firm and slower is what is necessary. If one has a tough time getting a 30 foot putt to stop where you want it to what hope do you have for a bump 7-iron from 110 yards. Many of the firmest courses I've played overseas had greens that were actually slower than some of the fairway surrounds. Once the greens get fast enough the only way to consistently get the ball to stop where you would like is something with height and spin, that includes both chips and full shots.




This is my opinion too.


And Matt, this is why I'm not overly concerned about being rewarded vs just making it possible. I realize that there is something to incentivizing things, but lots of us are just low-ball hitters, especially weaker players, they don't really need to be incentivized to hit their standard shot. That said, I'm totally cool with incentivizing those shots, but it would already be a huge leap in the right direction just to make them possible/easier than they currently are on the average course.


Full disclosure, I'm a low-ball hitter of average distance, and firm conditions don't really require me to do anything weird. If I'm 100 yards out, but it's very firm, I'm not knocking down a 7-iron. I'm just hitting my 90 yard club and letting it take a big bounce and run onto the green. The extra length I'm gaining is even better at longer distances, since I hit the ball pretty straight and not that far, I'm loving hitting my 5 iron 20 yards short and having it run onto the green. It's a great equalizer between me and the longer hitters because if I had to fly it on, I'd be hitting my 3 hybrid, which isn't as easy to hit as my 5 iron.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Jim Hoak

Re: Ideal Green Speed?
« Reply #15 on: Today at 01:23:40 PM »
I believe that greens that are too fast can become "silly" very quickly and are one of the main culprits in the decline in modern green building.  In my opinion, it is attributed to excessive male ego--too macho--and needs to be reigned in.  Members may sometimes brag about the speeds of their greens, as though that makes them better, more "manly." 
We've all heard the story of the unnamed club where members brag about slowing the greens down to hold the US Open there.  First of all, I don't believe it, and, second, that exemplifies a misunderstanding of what makes great, playable greens.
I'm sure course designers on here may have some good stories about being told to make the greens of a new course "the fastest around."  What a mistake to make that a goal--and what a mistake to think that that would equal quality!

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