[Thomas_Brown]

Don_Mahaffey - 77 - Which for my 3 hcap. was dead on the course rating.   The second time around I was 2 over when I had to leave.  I see you point, and I agree w/ you somewhat.  I think I'm not communicating my views clearly or perhaps, we agree to disagree.  Here's my thought - I'm not a great golfer - I'm not going to shoot 67 everytime, but on rare occassion I will.  However, like everyone else, I like to critique the arch. I see out there.


redanman - I agree.  My vote is w/ Jack - Roll the ball back!

Tommy_Naccarato - In 1990, the bunkers did come into play.
Not sure if they would now - I would think they still would.

[Matt_Ward]

redanman:

You missed my point. I enjoy short par-4's as much as you do. I would just hope that when players decide to bust it there needs to be some sort of "meaningful" penalty that will catch them should they err. What's wrong with that?

There's a few holes on the front side at AS (4th, 6th and 8th) that are simple pro forma holes that really don't offer that much of a "complete" challenge.

Yes, I see what you are striving to point out regarding "getting it close" and "scoring." Let me point out a similar type hole on a new course I played while in AZ -- the 10th at Outlaw -- the new Nicklaus design in Scottsdale.

The hole is ONLY 338 yards but you don't get away with simply busting the ball and landing on the green. The hole plays slightly downhill and there is an opening for tee shots but the opening isn't any wider than what you find at the 10th at Riviera.

There is a solitary d-e-e-p bunker in front and the green is perched on a slight diagonal that requires a deft touch with your second to get anywhere close. I like holes that have strategic flair -- the 6th at AS lacks when compared top the hole I just mentioned. That's all I suggested.  

[Matt_Ward]

redanman:

Look at it this way -- when there is little / zip stratregy you don't have a hole of consequence you simply have a hole.
 

P.S. In golf that is ...

[Matt_Ward]

redanman:

I don't assess from the lowest common denominator -- there are plenty of munis in my "neck of the woods" I could use as examples.

AS is a stellar design -- my only point was that the hole in question neither lives up to the qualities of the others at that site, nor is it the kind of short par-4 I have seen done better by Mr. Doak (e.g. 16th at Pac Dunes and 7th at The Rawls Course, to name just two examples).

Bill, I've played the hole a few times and it doesn't have the added penalty element a short par-4 should have. I mentioned the new Outlaw Course at DM in AZ and the 10th hole there does put a premium on those seeking a quick shortcut to fame and fortune.

Short par-4's need to have some added element of risk for the ward "reward" to mean something in my mind.

[Matt_Ward]

I forgot to mention one other thing happening at Apache Stronghold.

At the dog-leg right downhill par-5 15th there are plans for another championship tee being placed but this one will be to the right of the right of the par-3 14th.

Clearly, the angle will be a bit softer but the opportunity for someone to push the shot just a tad and land in "no man's land" is also quite possible.

One other thing since my second visit -- I really enjoyed playing the 11th hole from the mid-markers which makes the hole play just over 150 yards. The angle is much more daunting than what you find from the championship marks which play at about 176 yards.

When you play from the mid-markers the shot has to be perfectly judged to bypass the frontal bunkers and still have enough spin to handle the narrow green.

P.S. Collectively, the four par-3's at AS are truly well done holes. I personally really like the 3rd and 17th because they put such a priority on the long iron or even metal club having the proper combination of length and accuracy.

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