Donald Ross

[Sven Nilsen]

Many of them are courses that were as we like to call them,  “topo” courses that he never saw and where he just mailed in a routing…

What qualifies as "many" for a guy who designed 400 courses?  10, 20, 50? 


Let's start at 10.  Until someone can name 10 of his courses that are so called "topo" designs and provide the evidence to back it up, let's work on dispelling this myth instead of propagating it.

[Mark_Fine]

Sven,
I am on the road and don’t have Brad Klein’s book on Ross with me but in it he for example talks about which courses there is evidence Ross was actually there,… Maybe Brad will chime in here to help dispel any rumors. 


Regardless, the point I am making is not every Ross course is a 10    and many would be in that 3-5 category.  Any argument there?

[Sven Nilsen]

I've read Brad's book.  It's 24 years old at this point.  There has been a ton of new information unveiled since it was published.


If your point was related to the variety of scores his courses might receive, not sure why you needed to reiterate the fallacy that "many" of his courses were designed only by looking at a topo to make it.  Understand?

[Kyle Harris]

I've read Brad's book.  It's 24 years old at this point.  There has been a ton of new information unveiled since it was published.


If your point was related to the variety of scores his courses might receive, not sure why you needed to reiterate the fallacy that "many" of his courses were designed only by looking at a topo to make it.  Understand?

If Donald Ross never made a site visit to a specific project and prepared field notes for an associate to execute in his stead by what method did he familiarize himself with a site in order to prepare a design and notes for a construction crew?

[Sven Nilsen]

Again, name the courses where Ross never made a site visit.  Its not easy to do.


This is the issue. Somewhere along the line it became lore that this is how Ross operated on many projects.  It wasn't the case.  He travelled incessantly, to the point of exhaustion.  If you look at the dispersion of his designs on a map, they are located in areas he lived or frequented (New England, North Carolina, Michigan and Chicago, Florida, etc.).


There are courses that have been called Ross courses that he never saw and all of the work was performed by an associate, but this is an issue of attribution. 


There were also different levels of involvement by Ross as architect in various projects (plans only, plans and construction, etc.).  I wrote the following a few years ago on another thread:


"As noted above, Ross' workload in 1921 is nothing short of staggering.  With just a passing glance you might assume that there was no way Ross could give each project the individual attention it deserved.  But reading through the articles it strikes me how much time he spent traveling and actually visiting the locations where his courses would be built and in many cases making return visits to check in on construction or suggest additional changes.  There were certainly different levels of involvement, both by Ross and by his team.  A course like Daytona was planned by Ross, but the construction was handled by the club itself.  On the other hand, courses like Charles River and Mid Pines, close to his summer and winter home bases, received a great deal of his attention.[/size]It is worth noting that we start to see Ross losing a few contracts in situations where it was evident that he wouldn't be available to manage construction.  Alison would use this as a selling point for his work in the mid-20's when Colt & Alison made their return to the US.  Whether or not a Ross layout would have been better or worse for those clubs is a matter of speculative debate, but what is certain is that Ross would prove that courses that received as much time as he could manage turned out nothing less than spectacular.But even those projects where Ross only did the layout and left plans have held up amazingly well over the years.  There are a number of courses like the Broadmoor in Indiana that still today are given their due regard."



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[Kyle Harris]

Sven,


Respectfully, the degree to which Ross did or did not make site visits is irrelevant to the discussion as the only courses which are relevant to this particular point are those for which he didn’t. Unless your point is that he visited every course correctly attributed to him I don’t see what you’re getting at.


Unless your point is that a Ross course where he developed plans that were executed by others should not be attributed to Ross. In which case… I’m not sure I disagree!

[Kyle Harris]

Many of them are courses that were as we like to call them,  “topo” courses that he never saw and where he just mailed in a routing…

What qualifies as "many" for a guy who designed 400 courses?  10, 20, 50? 


Let's start at 10.  Until someone can name 10 of his courses that are so called "topo" designs and provide the evidence to back it up, let's work on dispelling this myth instead of propagating it.

Is a lack of evidence of a Ross visit to the site sufficient to meet this standard? What is the assumption if no evidence one way or the other exists?

[Mark_Fine]

Sven,
I don’t want to distract from the main point of the thread.  I did, however, just pass on a text to Brad to get his thoughts.  He said and I quote: “ 1/3 he probably hardly saw at all, not even once”

Again, regardless of whether Ross was on site or not, many of his courses might not be candidates for pure “restoration” if there is such a thing.  Then again, if for some reason it makes sense to restore a course that most might see as a 3 or 4, have at it.  I don’t think too many here will argue that there are many of them still out there and they serve a great purpose - good basic golf which was likely what he had in mind when he designed them.

[Sven Nilsen]

Respectfully, the degree to which Ross did or did not make site visits is irrelevant to the discussion as the only courses which are relevant to this particular point are those for which he didn’t. Unless your point is that he visited every course correctly attributed to him I don’t see what you’re getting at.

Its entirely relevant when someone is claiming he designed "many" courses by only working off a topo.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,
I don’t want to distract from the main point of the thread.  I did, however, just pass on a text to Brad to get his thoughts.  He said and I quote: “ 1/3 he probably hardly saw at all, not even once”

I disagree with Brad on this front. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Is a lack of evidence of a Ross visit to the site sufficient to meet this standard? What is the assumption if no evidence one way or the other exists?

Even if you split it 50/50, you don't get to Brad's 1/3 count.


I'd love to see someone start with a list of 10 courses that are correctly attributed as original Ross designs that he never visited.

[Kyle Harris]

Is a lack of evidence of a Ross visit to the site sufficient to meet this standard? What is the assumption if no evidence one way or the other exists?

Even if you split it 50/50, you don't get to Brad's 1/3 count.


I'd love to see someone start with a list of 10 courses that are correctly attributed as original Ross designs that he never visited.

You’re being disingenuous if it has to be original. Why aren’t his renovations relevant to the conversation?


Jeffersonville
New Smyrna Beach
Lewistown


For starters.

[Mark_Fine]

Sven,
I am just telling you what Brad literally just told me ten minutes ago (not from 24 years ago in his heavily researched Ross book). 

It is not hard for someone to take a land plan/topo map and do a course routing.  I guarantee you someone like Tom Doak could probably layout a pretty good routing from just that in 30 minutes.  Ross could as well.  After that it was up to the owner/contractor to build the course as they saw fit with what ever other notes from Ross that they got.

[Sven Nilsen]

You’re being disingenuous if it has to be original. Why aren’t his renovations relevant to the conversation?


Jeffersonville
New Smyrna Beach
Lewistown


For starters.

I don't think disingenuous is the word you're looking for.  Include the renovations if you'd like, it doesn't change my thoughts on the issue.


Jeffersonville - May 25, 1931 Public Ledger notes course was built under his personal supervision.  I wouldn't say this is evidence he never visited.


New Smyrna Beach - Are you talking about Handley Park here?  If so, I don't have any evidence either way, but if it was designed by Ross he was certainly in the neighborhood.


Lewistown (aka Birch Hill) - What makes you think this was Ross?

[Kyle Harris]

Re: Lewistown (and also Schuylkill while we are at it)


Your own Reunderstanding Ross thread lists both as Ross/McGovern in 1945, citing a document from Pinehurst.


Is the New Smyrna Beach Muni (started after Ross’s death) not correctly attributable to Ross/McGovern at some point?

[Sven Nilsen]

That thread is around 7 years old at this point.  There's been a bit of new info unearthed since then, including articles suggesting that Lewistown was more McGovern and/or Gordon than Ross.


I'd suspect the same is true for NSB Muni project as well, based on the timing.  Handley Park, which is cited as a 1922 9 hole design that went NLE in 1942, is a different story.


There are a number of courses on the DRS Listing that should be noted with a bit more specificity as to DR's actual involvement.  Without the needed clarification, it is easy to assume that he had as much involvement in an early design and build project as he did in a project that began in the last few years of his life under the direction of his remaining associates.


Don't get me wrong, I do think there are a number of courses on the DRS Listing that Ross never visited, but the majority of these are due to mistaken attributions or instances where the work of an associate has been conflated with that of Ross himself.  Once you accurately reflect his actual body of work, I don't think the number of courses he designed by topo (or mailed in as is the common phrase) reaches anything of significance, let alone 1/3 of his total number.


Perhaps someday the DRS Listing will evolve to present a more complete picture of each individual project (and weed out the mistaken attributions that stubbornly remain). 

[Kyle Harris]

Sven,


I say this respectfully because your work in this matter is something I reference all too often here in the misattributed Ross Capital of the world: Florida. But I believe you are simply re-stating the “many” courses from this thread or Bradley Klein’s 1/3 comment. You’re being more specific, sure, but the only difference is that you’re suggesting those courses are wrongly attributed to Ross because someone who worked for Ross did more work than Ross did.


For what it’s worth, I agree that the associates likely deserve more credit to the point of even removing Ross’s name from the attribution.

[Carl Johnson]

Here's what's needed.  A Donald Ross Authenticity Certificate.  The first task will be to establish clear standards about what makes a course an authentic Donald Ross course.  I think it will be easy to get everyone to agree on these.  The second task will be to identify and certify those courses that meet the standards.  This should also be fairly easy, a job that could be undertaken by the Donald Ross Society.  Too many courses claim to be "Ross."  With an official Donald Ross Society Authenticity Certificate (trademarked), those courses that really deserve the Ross name will be identified and rewarded, while the other so-called Ross courses will be shamed, the frauds and hucksters revealed. This should not be difficult and would put an end to these silly arguments.  Don't you agree?

[Sven Nilsen]

But I believe you are simply re-stating the “many” courses from this thread or Bradley Klein’s 1/3 comment. You’re being more specific, sure, but the only difference is that you’re suggesting those courses are wrongly attributed to Ross because someone who worked for Ross did more work than Ross did.

That is not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that he actually visited the sites of many more courses than most give him credit for.  1/3 of his courses is around 133.  We're being asked to believe that on over 100 of his projects he never saw the property in person.  This is a guy who was known for the travel he put in. 


I've copied in two articles below that discuss how Ross operated.  The first discusses a brief period of time spent in the Philadelphia area, the second provides a more general overview of his operational practices.


The small number of courses that were solely or mostly the work of one of his associates are a different matter.


April 24, 1919 Evening Public Ledger -





Jan. 8, 1916 Pinehurst Outlook -

[Tom_Doak]

 
It is not hard for someone to take a land plan/topo map and do a course routing.  I guarantee you someone like Tom Doak could probably layout a pretty good routing from just that in 30 minutes.  Ross could as well. 

I worked on a plan for 36 holes yesterday, hadn't seen the map previously.  It took me about three hours to come up with something that looks pretty good.  If Ross could do it in 30 minutes, more power to him . . . but, yeah, if you've had a lot of practice at it, it can go pretty quickly.


I'm sure it will get better when I get out on the site and see everything, but I'm confident it would turn out to be a pretty good course if I just turned this plan over to Eric Iverson or Brian Slawnik.  However, in the jet age, clients want me to make several trips to justify paying me so well.

[Sven Nilsen]

 
It is not hard for someone to take a land plan/topo map and do a course routing.  I guarantee you someone like Tom Doak could probably layout a pretty good routing from just that in 30 minutes.  Ross could as well. 

I worked on a plan for 36 holes yesterday, hadn't seen the map previously.  It took me about three hours to come up with something that looks pretty good.  If Ross could do it in 30 minutes, more power to him . . . but, yeah, if you've had a lot of practice at it, it can go pretty quickly.


I'm sure it will get better when I get out on the site and see everything, but I'm confident it would turn out to be a pretty good course if I just turned this plan over to Eric Iverson or Brian Slawnik.  However, in the jet age, clients want me to make several trips to justify paying me so well.

Tom:


If you haven't read the articles above, you'd probably enjoy the section in the Pinehurst Outlook article entitled "The Architect and The Club" which starts at the top of the second column on the first page.  The plans Ross produced seem to have had multiple purposes.


Curious as to how many of your courses, if any, reflect a routing you produced on a map before seeing the site.  I know Pac Dunes doesn't, as I've read the book on that one.


Sven

[Mark_Fine]

Thanks Tom.  I knew you could knock out a routing pretty quickly.  And for sure, if you were on site and spent time walking it and studying it, you would more than likely tweak and improve it.  But Ross wasn’t necessarily trying to make everything perfect on every project.  Owners sometimes just wanted his name associated with their golf course and a rough routing was good enough and pretty cheap to get. 


Carl,
Your idea is a good one but few will ever agree on what is or isn’t authentic.  If Ross never saw the site and just mailed in a rough stick routing with a few notes that mostly got followed by some contractor, is that an authentic Ross?  I have been asked and literally flown around the country to look over “Ross” courses to offer my opinion as part of court cases.  It is not easy and often not obvious as to what is or is not Ross.  His level of “involvement” varied dramatically from course to course.  That is a fact!

[Sven Nilsen]

But Ross wasn’t necessarily trying to make everything perfect on every project.  Owners sometimes just wanted his name associated with their golf course and a rough routing was good enough and pretty cheap to get. 

If Ross never saw the site and just mailed in a rough stick routing with a few notes that mostly got followed by some contractor, is that an authentic Ross?  ...His level of “involvement” varied dramatically from course to course.  That is a fact!

No one is arguing that his level of involvement didn't vary.  I said the same thing earlier in the thread.  Sometimes a club could only afford to pay for a brief visit and a set of plans with instructions that they would build themselves.  Sometimes there were deep pockets and the club hired not only Ross but his construction team for the entire build.  Many of his projects fell somewhere in between these two extremes. 


In the early 1920's he was booked up for three years solid.  It isn't surprising that some club's might have taken what they could get of his time, and there is correspondence on certain projects confirming this was the case.  During the busiest of years, he was traveling 25 days a month, mostly by train.  This makes sense when you consider for a long stretch he had on average 25 to 30 different projects going on throughout the course of a year.


The statement that he wasn't trying to make everything perfect seems out of line based on what we know about Ross, and suggests he half-assed it from time to time.  Perhaps what you meant to say was that he wasn't hired for the same level of involvement on every project, which has nothing to do with the effort he put in for what he was actually hired to do.


As to the assertion he "mailed in a rough stick routing" after never seeing a site, please provide a couple examples of this being the case.  This is exactly the myth you seeming willing to propagate without asserting any proof it is not a myth.


Sven

[Carl Johnson]

Mark, my "idea" was intended to be tongue in cheek.  It would be a fools errand, in actuality . . . not that someone wouldn't give it a shot.  These days, just about anything goes.  To add a little more flesh to the plan.  You would not be able to buy a certificate, at least not above the table, but on the other hand, in order to secure the certificate you'd have to pay a "reasonable fee" to cover the costs of the process and reward those who thought it up.  To be charitable (to give back to golf), I hereby disclaim any financial interest for myself.

So, what do I think these sorts of discussions are good for?  They are educational and fun.  The participants (us) learn a lot from each other.  I do and I expect others would agree.  What, sadly, they don't do is have an impact on the golf playing public, at least not short term.  For me, the benefit is that in discussing the characteristics attributed to Ross courses, we focus on what it means to "play golf" and the many different ways it can be played.  Fortunately, there is no one right way, though many seem to think so.  Just my opinion.

Right now I'm personally involved in a meaningful real life discussion about what it means to be a Donald Ross golf course.  Maybe some day in the very distant future, should I live that long, I'll have something to say about it.  Suffice it to say for now that this website's discussion group is playing a substantial roll.

[Mark_Fine]

Sven,
It goes without saying that Ross wasn’t able to provide the necessary time on site (if any) at many of his projects to do his best work. Not sure how you could argue with that when you yourself said how many projects he had going on.  If C&C or Tom Doak took on that much work, could they really be spending the time necessary (as they do now) to make each course with their name on it the best it could possibly be???  I can 100% guarantee you having talked with Bill Coore many times that he would laugh at that idea. Bill might spend multiple days if not weeks on one hole to get it right.  Ross on the other hand might have stopped for a 1/2 day visit and handed over a routing plan before moving on to his next project. Nothing further needs to be said in a case like that about how perfect he was trying to make that particular golf course.  The owner knew what they were getting and so did Ross and both parties were usually happy. Ross was mass producing golf courses with his name on them and he was ok with that. As such without question the quality will vary. 

Carl,
Didn’t know you were joking.

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