Donald Ross

[Hal Hicks]

Does a true Donald Ross Course exist anymore?  There are a lot more smarter people on this site than me, but I am of the impression with all the restoration work in recent years by "modern architects" is there a Donald Ross course anywhere near its original design?  Having been the supt. at Seminole for over 30 years I can state that it is nowhere near the course I started at in
1989.  With Gil Hanse renovating Seminole this summer, there will be 4 "modern architects" that have changed Seminole in the last 7 years!

[Tim_Weiman]

Hal,


Thanks for posting. I have to ask: what did the leadership of the club feel was wrong with the course that needed to be changed?


Tim

[Carl Johnson]

"Does a true Donald Ross Course exist anymore?"  Great question.  I will throw this out for consideration: the front nine (1948) of the Fort Mill Golf Club in Fort Mill, S.C.  (The back nine was added by George Cobb in 1959.)  I am speculating.  It's a relatively recent Ross design and has had less time to be fussed around with.  It's a public course and therefore not subject to the whims of membership or green committees. The owner is a nonprofit foundation established to provide recreational opportunities for the Fort Mill community and not a deep pockets venture.  I've played the course any number of times and the front nine appears pretty pure and uncomplicated.  There is only one hole, #2, on which the green is fronted by a large pond, that I would wonder about.

[Hal Hicks]

[size=78%]Hal,[/size]


Thanks for posting. I have to ask: what did the leadership of the club feel was wrong with the course that needed to be changed?


Tim
[/quote

Hal,


Thanks for posting. I have to ask: what did the leadership of the club feel was wrong with the course that needed to be changed?


Tim

]


Tim,


     From what I have seen occurring around the United States at the top private clubs, there seems to be a trend where many
classic golf courses are being renovated by modern architects at the request of "legacy" club authorities.  These "legacy" authorities see this as a chance to leave their mark on a golf course.  Their viewpoint is that "it is our club, and we are going to do what we want with the golf course".  Heard that comment many times during my tenure at Seminole.  All I can say is that by and large my first 20 years at Seminole the power in charge wanted to keep Seminole "in its previous form".  The last 10 years of my employment was a conversion from a somewhat natural, links style golf course to a park style golf course.  The current power at Seminole wants a more manicured (bunker machine raking the dunes), perfectly edged bunkers, lush green turf etc. examples of parkland golf.  I think this reflects the modern maintenance meld trend with several classic golf courses.  By and large the members of Seminole only play Augusta National, Pine Valley (lots of changes there also) and other top level manicured golf courses. In my opinion, this results in their thinking the courses should be maintained the same rather than different based on the original architect's concept.
   

[Jim Sherma]

The closest we would get to a "true" Ross would be a slightly run down public that never had any money to make any real changes. Mark Twain up in Elmira, NY might be an option. I'm sure some stuff has been done (the front bunker of the par 3 down by the parking lot for example - #7?) but in general it might be pretty original other than the bunkers that are filled in.


I've always said that as a group we fetishize the architects' of these great old clubs. When in fact we should probably be more cognizant of the clubs/members that have maintained and improved (not always to our liking of course) these courses to be what we see today. Even if we did nothing to a course 100 years of thatch, top-dressing, bunker rebuilds, drainage work, etc. would change a course in a meaningful way.

[Tim_Weiman]

Hal,


Thanks for your perspective. Unfortunately, the only person I knew that was a member at Seminole (Cab Woodward from New York) has passed away.


He was a great guy and it would have been fun to hear his perspective.


Tim

[Hal Hicks]

The closest we would get to a "true" Ross would be a slightly run down public that never had any money to make any real changes. Mark Twain up in Elmira, NY might be an option. I'm sure some stuff has been done (the front bunker of the par 3 down by the parking lot for example - #7?) but in general it might be pretty original other than the bunkers that are filled in.


I've always said that as a group we fetishize the architects' of these great old clubs. When in fact we should probably be more cognizant of the clubs/members that have maintained and improved (not always to our liking of course) these courses to be what we see today. Even if we did nothing to a course 100 years of thatch, top-dressing, bunker rebuilds, drainage work, etc. would change a course in a meaningful way.
[/quote


Jim,


    You probably right.  Less available money results in less change to the original design.  Shame the big money clubs do not make
improvements that keep the original design concept in mind whether its a Ross, Raynor, McKenzie etc. In my opinion, they use it under the guise of restoration when in reality it is a license to make the changes of their personal whims.

[Hal Hicks]

Hal,


Thanks for your perspective. Unfortunately, the only person I knew that was a member at Seminole (Cab Woodward from New York) has passed away.


He was a great guy and it would have been fun to hear his perspective.


Tim

Tim,


The older members of Seminole had a much better perspective on history than the younger members.  I really
appreciated their desire to keep the course intact as it existed.  They always echoed your comment--why change
the course!

[Carl Johnson]

This subject interests me a lot, so I'll chime in with another comment.  There are three golf courses (clubs) in my city, Charlotte, with Ross roots: Charlotte Country Club, Myers Park Country Club and Carolina Golf Club (where I've been a member since 1995).  Charlotte and Myers Park have been more than tinkered with over the years, and both clubs are now embarking on yet another renovation, both by Andrew Green.  I have heard or attended presentations by Mr. Green about his upcoming work at both courses.  The message I got from Green was that he was going to respect and follow Ross principles in his work, and here or there throw in a bunker where one was on the original Ross plan, but in no way is he trying to restore the courses to their original Ross plan.  His idea, as I heard it, is to respect Ross while adapting the courses to the modern game and today's membership.  I was impressed and expect excellent results.  Maybe I'll be invited to play the finished products some day.


Carolina is a somewhat different story.  It was a privately owned-daily fee course from it's Ross inception in 1929 until 1958, when it was purchased by some of the regular players and converted to a private golf club.  The course was little changed until a 2006-2008 renovation-restoration by Kris Spence.  Here is a link to a 2009 GCA discussion thread on Spence's work at Carolina, which includes comments from Spence himself.  https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37123.0.html  The club's bylaws were then amended to provide that any future changes to the course had to be approved by Spence (or another Ross specialist) and then by 2/3 of the Board.  In short, I believe that Carolina is trying to stay reasonably close its Ross roots, yet it is not a pure Ross original and what preservation there is it continues to be a battleground.  I'll end there.

[Andrew Harvie]

It depends on where you stand on the Ship of Theseus debate!

[JNC Lyon]

The closest one I have seen is Teugega in Upstate New York. The common denominator here seems to be the opposite of Seminole: a lack of ultra-wealthy members. Teugega is a non-wealthy club in a non-wealthy city that just seems to love its golf course. Ross also spent a lot of time there in the 20s because he had a girlfriend in that area. As far as I can tell from aerial photos, the layout and bunkering (with maybe a handful of bunkers filled in) is basically original, and I believe all but one green complex is original as well.


Three more in the region:
1) I second Jim Sherma's pick of Mark Twain, which really contrasts with nearby Elmira CC in terms in renovation work.
2) The front nine at Thendara in Old Forge has the original routing and wild greens. Both Thendara and MT are public and don't have tons of money to bring in the architects that are so hot right now.
3) Oak Hill's West Course. If search back 15 years you can find me talking about the West Course ad nauseam. Not much has changed other than the club doing a massive renovation of the East Course, just increasing the gap in total $$ spent on the East Course vs. the West Course over the last 75 years. The West is missing a lot of its original bunkering, but the greens are, like Teugega, 17/18 original and some of his wildest.


If you want original Ross, look off the beaten paths for courses that have been ignored or under-improved for years. It probably won't be the old money club in a large metro area.

[Joel_Stewart]

Does a true Donald Ross Course exist anymore? 

Hal:



Its not just Donald Ross but all of the classics including Mackenzie, Tillinghast and others.


Irrigation and drainage have something to do with courses adapting along with agronomy and green speeds.


The greens at Seminole are unbelievably fast to the point of being unfair.  A member told me recently that Seminole has a philosophy that the course should get harder the closer you are to the hole. With that said, if you're above the hole you pretty much have no chance and likely will putt into a bunker. I'm not sure that's what Ross wanted. 

[Hal Hicks]

Does a true Donald Ross Course exist anymore? 

Hal:



Its not just Donald Ross but all of the classics including Mackenzie, Tillinghast and others.


Irrigation and drainage have something to do with courses adapting along with agronomy and green speeds.


The greens at Seminole are unbelievably fast to the point of being unfair.  A member told me recently that Seminole has a philosophy that the course should get harder the closer you are to the hole. With that said, if you're above the hole you pretty much have no chance and likely will putt into a bunker. I'm not sure that's what Ross wanted.

Joel,


    You are 100% correct about the greens.  The only thing at Seminole today that resembles Donald Ross is the routing.  This is by far the best thing about Seminole.  The greens, tees, bunkers, dunes have been totally changed from the original design.  But the biggest change is in the greens.  They have been redone several times and are nowhere near a Donald Ross designed green.  It will be interesting to see and hear from the members about all the changes Gil Hanse makes to the greens and bunkers this year under the guise of raising the bottom of the golf course for drainage purposes.

[Cliff Hamm]

Neither  George Wright in Boston or Triggs in Providence have much money beyond basic maintenance. I am not aware of any significant architectural changes at either of these, but I certainly could be wrong. They both have had significant tree growth, but besides that are the courses essentially as they were designed?

[Keith Williams]

There was a time when Holston Hills would be mentioned as qualifying, but I think that ship has now sailed.


-Keith

[Doug Bolls]

There is a 9 hole course in Elk Rapids, Michigan along the shores of Elk Lake that was designed / built /  in 1922-23.  Opened in 1924.


It was built using public bond money in hopes of creating a tourist resort and Donald Ross was hired in 1921 to design and build it.


It reamins a public course - maybe this on comes very close to an original.

[Michael Chadwick]

The older members of Seminole had a much better perspective on history than the younger members.  I really
appreciated their desire to keep the course intact as it existed.  They always echoed your comment--why change
the course!

Hal, I remain confused by your line of argument. You reiterated in your reply to Joel that, according to you, the amount of Ross at Seminole is only found in its routing. Yet Wilson's work was already done prior to your tenure beginning in 1989, so were you in effect responsible for maintaining a more Wilson than Ross version throughout your career?  I'm interpreting that from your sentiment; I have no opinion.


More to the point, your quotations around modern architects seem deliberate to mock the integrity of their work, along with your reference that the changes they make are performed under "the guise of restoration." 


I haven't played Seminole, nor studied it much. But I have some experience with Oakland Hills and LACC. These current versions are both, to me, unequivocally presented in a more faithful spirit of their original versions than how the courses appeared prior to Hanse's restorative efforts. Why shouldn't Seminole become another example?


Your recent participation on this site has certainly generated discussion, but so far, within your posts I sense a motivation to settle some kind of score.


 


     

[Tom_Doak]

There was a time when Holston Hills would be mentioned as qualifying, but I think that ship has now sailed.

Has it really changed that much?  All I heard was that they changed a handful of bunkers.  As far as I know, they've never rebuilt greens or lengthened it 500 yards or done a $5m "restoration".


It's got to be closer to a true representation of his work than Elk Rapids GC, which I'm not sure he ever saw.

[Tom_Doak]

It was the late Tom Weiskopf in the early 1980s, who, lamenting the changes to Oak Hill and Inverness, suggested there should be a "Society for the Preservation of Donald Ross Courses".


Note the word he used.


Instead, we got a Donald Ross Society that often recommends architects to consult at clubs and "restore" them.  I don't think that's what TW had in mind.


Still, it boggles my mind if there are no great Ross courses left that are good examples of preservation.  There must be some that have not gone under the knife??


The first that come to mind are in upstate NY -- Glens Falls and Teugega, and also Longmeadow in MA, but maybe someone has gotten to these now.

[Hal Hicks]

The older members of Seminole had a much better perspective on history than the younger members.  I really
appreciated their desire to keep the course intact as it existed.  They always echoed your comment--why change
the course!

Hal, I remain confused by your line of argument. You reiterated in your reply to Joel that, according to you, the amount of Ross at Seminole is only found in its routing. Yet Wilson's work was already done prior to your tenure beginning in 1989, so were you in effect responsible for maintaining a more Wilson than Ross version throughout your career?  I'm interpreting that from your sentiment; I have no opinion.


More to the point, your quotations around modern architects seem deliberate to mock the integrity of their work, along with your reference that the changes they make are performed under "the guise of restoration." 


I haven't played Seminole, nor studied it much. But I have some experience with Oakland Hills and LACC. These current versions are both, to me, unequivocally presented in a more faithful spirit of their original versions than how the courses appeared prior to Hanse's restorative efforts. Why shouldn't Seminole become another example?


Your recent participation on this site has certainly generated discussion, but so far, within your posts I sense a motivation to settle some kind of score.


Michael,


    You make excellent points!  When I came to Seminole in 1989 it had been dramatically changed by Dick Wilson both in the green complexes and bunkering.  Then I was definitely involved in all the bunkers being renovated in 1993 with Brian Silva being
the architect involved.  Then I was definitely involved with the Coore/Crenshaw renovation of all the bunkers between 2016-2019.
To your point, I think all the architects did great work but without any pictures on record of the golf course they were basically operating blind to what Ross had created.  The part I don't understand is the fact that in my opinion Coore and Crenshaw did excellent work in renovating the bunkers finishing in 2019.  Now the club is having the bunkers completely renovated by Gil Hanse
and maybe you can explain the logic behind that decision.  Like I said there are many people smarter than me on this site.   My comments are just the truth in relation to Seminole.  Between Dick Wilson, Brian Silva, Coore and Crenshaw, Kyle Franz and now Gil Hanse---I think it can be seen (and I was definitely involved) that Seminole is no longer a Donald Ross for the most part no
matter how good an architect is without pictures or any records to go by.  Again, I am not saying the architects do not do great work but they are not Donald Ross and the end result is their own interpretation in my opinion.


 


     

[Tim Martin]

Neither  George Wright in Boston or Triggs in Providence have much money beyond basic maintenance. I am not aware of any significant architectural changes at either of these, but I certainly could be wrong. They both have had significant tree growth, but besides that are the courses essentially as they were designed?

Cliff-I thought of Triggs when I read the thread title as all indications are it’s pretty original. There is definite tree growth but I think they are doing a good job of not having them encroach the playing corridors. As mentioned in an earlier post a lack of resources to make wholesale changes ends up being an advantage with some of the Golden Age courses.

[Ryan Book]

I can only speak to Andrew Green's work his two Ohio Rosses, as well as TV coverage from Oak Hill. All are, undoubtedly, at a better place than they had been. However my eyes immediately draw to the sharp brows over the bunkers at each. It pleased me significantly when playing Inverness, however as it appeared during other restorations, I began to wonder how true to the stated goal "restoration" it was versus a singular vision of Green's understanding of Ross.


As has been noted in numerous threads across this network, the variety in Ross's work stems from both the length of his career and the inadvertent creative input of his field managers between projects. How should a Supreme Court Justice golf course architect approach bunkers at a project? Literally (by old photos)? Interpretively (by Ross's writings on ideal bunkering)? Subjectively (pursuing the architect's own version of Ross)?


I certainly appreciate the diverse flavors across Ross's body of work...hopefully it remains evident across this period of renovation.

[Michael Chadwick]

Michael,


    You make excellent points!  When I came to Seminole in 1989 it had been dramatically changed by Dick Wilson both in the green complexes and bunkering.  Then I was definitely involved in all the bunkers being renovated in 1993 with Brian Silva being
the architect involved.  Then I was definitely involved with the Coore/Crenshaw renovation of all the bunkers between 2016-2019.
To your point, I think all the architects did great work but without any pictures on record of the golf course they were basically operating blind to what Ross had created.  The part I don't understand is the fact that in my opinion Coore and Crenshaw did excellent work in renovating the bunkers finishing in 2019.  Now the club is having the bunkers completely renovated by Gil Hanse
and maybe you can explain the logic behind that decision.  Like I said there are many people smarter than me on this site.   My comments are just the truth in relation to Seminole.  Between Dick Wilson, Brian Silva, Coore and Crenshaw, Kyle Franz and now Gil Hanse---I think it can be seen (and I was definitely involved) that Seminole is no longer a Donald Ross for the most part no
matter how good an architect is without pictures or any records to go by.  Again, I am not saying the architects do not do great work but they are not Donald Ross and the end result is their own interpretation in my opinion.

Appreciate this added context. I think I now better understand that your position hinges on the idea that the club does not have sufficient historical records available, which, for you, leaves too much room for a contemporary architect's interpretation. Thanks for clarifying.


 

[Keith Williams]

There was a time when Holston Hills would be mentioned as qualifying, but I think that ship has now sailed.

Has it really changed that much?  All I heard was that they changed a handful of bunkers.  As far as I know, they've never rebuilt greens or lengthened it 500 yards or done a $5m "restoration".


It's got to be closer to a true representation of his work than Elk Rapids GC, which I'm not sure he ever saw.

Tom, You are correct with respect to greens and lengthening.  I think the recent work by Kris Spence under McConnell Golf's ownership has, at least for some, muddied the waters a little.  You may recall a recent thread here that became somewhat contentious on the topic.


Others here are more invested than I (members, etc), but I wasn't thrilled with the justifications offered in defense of the changes being made.


-Keith

[Chris Mavros]

There is a 9 hole course in Elk Rapids, Michigan along the shores of Elk Lake that was designed / built /  in 1922-23.  Opened in 1924.


It was built using public bond money in hopes of creating a tourist resort and Donald Ross was hired in 1921 to design and build it.


It reamins a public course - maybe this on comes very close to an original.

Elk Rapids came to mind for me as well.  The course was only partially completed until recently, when Ross' original plans were found in a nearby building downtown marked for demolition.  The course was then built to spec, where it has remained the last several years.  It's likely the most recently constructed Ross course based on his original design, just like it would have been if it was constructed back then.  No changes have taken effect as of yet. 

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