GolfClubAtlas.com > Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group
The Consensus Problem: Classic vs Modern
Chris Hughes:
--- Quote from: Ben Sims on Yesterday at 10:04:35 AM ---
I don’t think you can have it both ways. I don’t think raters and enthusiasts can defend the glaring lack of modern courses among the top courses (defending consensus for classic courses) in the world whilst also saying that the ratings themselves are groupthink.
I say once and I say again, modern courses are under represented compared to their quality. Bandon Trails is the equal of Pine Valley. Pacific Dunes is the equal of Cypress Point. And Cruden Bay ain’t got nothing on Old Barnwell.
--- End quote ---
Out of curiosity have you taken time to write down your personal top-10 in order?
If so, would you be willing to share?
Ben Sims:
--- Quote from: Chris Hughes on Today at 02:01:26 AM ---
--- Quote from: Ben Sims on Yesterday at 10:04:35 AM ---
I don’t think you can have it both ways. I don’t think raters and enthusiasts can defend the glaring lack of modern courses among the top courses (defending consensus for classic courses) in the world whilst also saying that the ratings themselves are groupthink.
I say once and I say again, modern courses are under represented compared to their quality. Bandon Trails is the equal of Pine Valley. Pacific Dunes is the equal of Cypress Point. And Cruden Bay ain’t got nothing on Old Barnwell.
--- End quote ---
Out of curiosity have you taken time to write down your personal top-10 in order?
If so, would you be willing to share?
--- End quote ---
Sure. Number of plays in parenthesis.
NGLA (1)
Pac Dunes (~5)
Cypress (1)
Ballyneal (~30)
Bandon Trails (3)
Pine Valley (1)
Old Macdonald (3)
Royal Dornoch (2)
Old Barnwell (~20)
Crystal Downs (1)
This list evolves. I find it brutal to try and rank stuff with one play. My own bias towards modern courses may be from having played them a lot more than the best classics I’ve seen. This list also fails to mention which of the great courses I’ve seen and haven’t seen. So it’s hard to judge my own preferences. For instance I’ve seen Oakmont and Friars Head. Amazing courses. Not on my top 10. Do I think Old Barnwell is better than Oakmont or do I just like it a lot more? You’ll have to judge that.
I think I rated 8 of those 10 for Golfweek way back when and I can’t remember what I gave them. I’d be shocked if this Top 10 was close to how I ranked them at the time.
The bottom line is my list is unreliable, filled with bias and personal preference, and generally kind of crappy.This is the reason why aggregate consensus through years of learned expertise is so incredibly important. Yeah magazine rankings are flawed. But are they less flawed than my mumbo jumbo above? Of course. People can get angry about the absurdity of magazine rankings. But I think what they’re missing is that it serves as an extremely useful and important place from which to start discussion about what good golf architecture is. Striving to get the lists better and understand what they’re saying is important in my opinion.
Don Mahaffey:
Ben,
Why should I care which courses you think are "better".
You have me interested if you talk about courses you like. Courses that stir your soul. Those courses that bring you to a different emotional state.
Tell me if you want to go back, or join and why. Better? There's been 1000s of posts here with this vs that or why this or that. Most of them are just people trying to empirically describe why they like something. Lets get past that and talk about why we are willing to drop everything on a moments notice and drive 5 hours for the chance to play a course that brings a feeling you don't get anywhere else.
To me, the greats are the ones that suck me in and make me NOT want to analyze what makes them special.
Tim_Weiman:
--- Quote from: Don Mahaffey on Today at 09:22:26 AM ---Ben,
Why should I care which courses you think are "better".
You have me interested if you talk about courses you like. Courses that stir your soul. Those courses that bring you to a different emotional state.
Tell me if you want to go back, or join and why. Better? There's been 1000s of posts here with this vs that or why this or that. Most of them are just people trying to empirically describe why they like something. Lets get past that and talk about why we are willing to drop everything on a moments notice and drive 5 hours for the chance to play a course that brings a feeling you don't get anywhere else.
To me, the greats are the ones that suck me in and make me NOT want to analyze what makes them special.
--- End quote ---
Don,
Exactly my feeling. I’d don’t care about rankings. I just want to see and play courses I enjoy.
Tim
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