Sutton's Mix

[John Emerson]

I just cannot wrap my head around why these courses are so stuck on using varieties of grass from 100+ years ago. The gap is light years apart on turfgrass quality and performance. I cannot think of any good agronomic, playability, environmental, or economic reason other than "because we can" or "that's what we've always done"
#groupthink

Well Royal Melbourne might be the best conditioned course in the world.  In the 1980s they were convinced to get with the times and they changed their greens to Penncross    but now they’ve changed them back for the better

Tom,


We are in agreeance that RM is about as good as it gets for playing surfaces. My point is, at what cost? Penncross is such a poor grass compared to newer varieties that it is only put into trials to show how awful it is compared to newer cultivars. That doesn't seem like an apples to apples comparison. To assume one cannot achieve the same turf quality results (with less inputs) with new cultivars is nonsense. If one wants a fine fescue monostand or an mix of Agrostis species and festuca species there are plenty of new cultivars for all species that could be chosen that require less.

[John Emerson]

I just cannot wrap my head around why these courses are so stuck on using varieties of grass from 100+ years ago. The gap is light years apart on turfgrass quality and performance. I cannot think of any good agronomic, playability, environmental, or economic reason other than "because we can" or "that's what we've always done"
#groupthink

John


I would be curious to hear what kind of schedule you would advocate for when it comes to regrassing greens in an effort to harness the newest cultivars?

Grant,
That is a bit of a loaded question. Site specificity will dictate what could/should be done. Nevertheless, at the rate of current cultivar development, especially with the bentgrasses, if your greens are 20 years old or more I would encourage a re-grassing. It is night and day difference from just 20 years ago much less 100 years ago... FWIW Penncross, and to a lesser extent, A-1 finished dead last on average across all locations in the last round of bentgrass NTEP trials. There is not a single scenario in which I would recommend either.


I have seen great success with inter-seeding with newer varieties as well. For example, during an aerification or verticutting event. But one also has to slowly change their mgmt practices as to encourage the proliferation of the new cultivar introduced. Too much for this post to elaborate, but you get the idea.

[Matthew Delahunty]

I just cannot wrap my head around why these courses are so stuck on using varieties of grass from 100+ years ago. The gap is light years apart on turfgrass quality and performance. I cannot think of any good agronomic, playability, environmental, or economic reason other than "because we can" or "that's what we've always done"
#groupthink

Well Royal Melbourne might be the best conditioned course in the world.  In the 1980s they were convinced to get with the times and they changed their greens to Penncross    but now they’ve changed them back for the better

Tom,


We are in agreeance that RM is about as good as it gets for playing surfaces. My point is, at what cost? Penncross is such a poor grass compared to newer varieties that it is only put into trials to show how awful it is compared to newer cultivars. That doesn't seem like an apples to apples comparison. To assume one cannot achieve the same turf quality results (with less inputs) with new cultivars is nonsense. If one wants a fine fescue monostand or an mix of Agrostis species and festuca species there are plenty of new cultivars for all species that could be chosen that require less.

I think it would be a fallacy to suggest that the turf surfaces at RM are 100+ years old.  The "Suttons Mix" greens today are not like the pre-1988 greens (which was when the short-lived transition to Penncross occurred) .  They are effectively a new cultivar or mix of cultivars of the better strains of the original turf.


RM may face a day of reckoning when the herbicides and fungicides that are currently permitted are outlawed by legislation but, until then, why would you want to change what are the best putting surfaces anywhere?


It would be good to see more research into developing new cultivars of browntop bents that are more traffic/wear resistant and disease resistant.  The research on creeping bents over the past 40 years is light years ahead of browntop bent development for turf surfaces. 


Progress is afoot on the Sandbelt. Many of the courses have transitioned to Pure Distinction and other new bent types.  At my club (Spring Valley) we are about to lay down Oakley bentgrass on our greens, ushering in the latest generation of bentgrasses.  However, as Mike Clayton says, there is a difference between perfect turf and turf that is perfect for golf.  That is why the greens at RM should stay as they are (until conditions/regulations change such that they wouldn't be able to maintain the surfaces in the same manner as they are presented at the moment).   Transitioning to a different cultivar would forever change the way the course plays.

[Neil_Crafter]

Alex Russell used Sutton's Mix to turf the greens at Yarra Yarra. Mick Morcom was asked to undertake the sowing in person. In later published recollections of former club member and nurseryman George McEwan Duncan the greens were sown with "a special mixture which the Club imported from Suttons, the English seed merchants. The base of this mixture was South German Bent, but also contained Red Fescue and Hard Fescue."This information would seem to confirm that Sutton's Mix did in fact contain fescue.

[Rich M]

It seems like the upright nature of the browntop and the browntop/creeping hybrid bent didn't slow down the green speeds at the 2011 Presidents Cup, when they rolled 14' on the stimpmeter.

[SL_Solow]

Tom,  a number of courses in Chicago and surrounds had Washington bent but overtime poa took over and eventually most of then replaced their grasses with new cultivars.  I remember the 9th green at Briarwood in Deerfield had a good stand of Washington and the purplish color became particularly noticeable in the fall.  I agreed with the regrassing but I miss the distinct color.  Calumet on the south side, which is struggling to survive, has greens circa 1958 which were Washington bent but are mostly poa today.

[Grant Saunders]

I just cannot wrap my head around why these courses are so stuck on using varieties of grass from 100+ years ago. The gap is light years apart on turfgrass quality and performance. I cannot think of any good agronomic, playability, environmental, or economic reason other than "because we can" or "that's what we've always done"
#groupthink

John


I would be curious to hear what kind of schedule you would advocate for when it comes to regrassing greens in an effort to harness the newest cultivars?

Grant,
That is a bit of a loaded question. Site specificity will dictate what could/should be done. Nevertheless, at the rate of current cultivar development, especially with the bentgrasses, if your greens are 20 years old or more I would encourage a re-grassing. It is night and day difference from just 20 years ago much less 100 years ago... FWIW Penncross, and to a lesser extent, A-1 finished dead last on average across all locations in the last round of bentgrass NTEP trials. There is not a single scenario in which I would recommend either.


I have seen great success with inter-seeding with newer varieties as well. For example, during an aerification or verticutting event. But one also has to slowly change their mgmt practices as to encourage the proliferation of the new cultivar introduced. Too much for this post to elaborate, but you get the idea.

John


Thank you for your reply and I appreciate there are a huge amount of variables around the decision to regrass.


At what point do you think a surface starts to really alter in terms of composition based on management techniques and the mutation/hybrid colonization takes place? Would regrassing frequently possibly prevent this scenario which potentially leads to a site and management specific surface that is best adapted? Think Oakmont Poa and what has taken place there

[Grant Saunders]

It seems like the upright nature of the browntop and the browntop/creeping hybrid bent didn't slow down the green speeds at the 2011 Presidents Cup, when they rolled 14' on the stimpmeter.

RIch


Browntop is very upright and can be quite rigid also with the ball rolling across the leaf tips as opposed to the leaf blades.


We have just hosted a national golf fixture where our browntop surfaces rolled at 13 foot daily. With our modest resources, it is difficult to achieve these speeds but it is doable. This combined with extreme smoothness, that I personally have not seen other grasses such as poa or creeping bent achieve, and firmness which is unusual at courses here made for a strong golfing experience.

[John Emerson]

I just cannot wrap my head around why these courses are so stuck on using varieties of grass from 100+ years ago. The gap is light years apart on turfgrass quality and performance. I cannot think of any good agronomic, playability, environmental, or economic reason other than "because we can" or "that's what we've always done"
#groupthink

John


I would be curious to hear what kind of schedule you would advocate for when it comes to regrassing greens in an effort to harness the newest cultivars?

Grant,
That is a bit of a loaded question. Site specificity will dictate what could/should be done. Nevertheless, at the rate of current cultivar development, especially with the bentgrasses, if your greens are 20 years old or more I would encourage a re-grassing. It is night and day difference from just 20 years ago much less 100 years ago... FWIW Penncross, and to a lesser extent, A-1 finished dead last on average across all locations in the last round of bentgrass NTEP trials. There is not a single scenario in which I would recommend either.


I have seen great success with inter-seeding with newer varieties as well. For example, during an aerification or verticutting event. But one also has to slowly change their mgmt practices as to encourage the proliferation of the new cultivar introduced. Too much for this post to elaborate, but you get the idea.

John


Thank you for your reply and I appreciate there are a huge amount of variables around the decision to regrass.


At what point do you think a surface starts to really alter in terms of composition based on management techniques and the mutation/hybrid colonization takes place? Would regrassing frequently possibly prevent this scenario which potentially leads to a site and management specific surface that is best adapted? Think Oakmont Poa and what has taken place there

I think nutrient management has the most profound impact on species composition. Historical methods of nutrient management undoubtedly favors Poa annua invasion and proliferation. It doesn't matter what seed is planted when standard management practices are designed to encourage the undesirable species.


I have seen immediate invasion of Poa annua into brand new greens. It only gets worse from there if one continues down the same path. Sure interseeding helps, but to me that's putting a band-aid on a broken leg.

[Grant Saunders]

I just cannot wrap my head around why these courses are so stuck on using varieties of grass from 100+ years ago. The gap is light years apart on turfgrass quality and performance. I cannot think of any good agronomic, playability, environmental, or economic reason other than "because we can" or "that's what we've always done"
#groupthink

John


I would be curious to hear what kind of schedule you would advocate for when it comes to regrassing greens in an effort to harness the newest cultivars?

Grant,
That is a bit of a loaded question. Site specificity will dictate what could/should be done. Nevertheless, at the rate of current cultivar development, especially with the bentgrasses, if your greens are 20 years old or more I would encourage a re-grassing. It is night and day difference from just 20 years ago much less 100 years ago... FWIW Penncross, and to a lesser extent, A-1 finished dead last on average across all locations in the last round of bentgrass NTEP trials. There is not a single scenario in which I would recommend either.


I have seen great success with inter-seeding with newer varieties as well. For example, during an aerification or verticutting event. But one also has to slowly change their mgmt practices as to encourage the proliferation of the new cultivar introduced. Too much for this post to elaborate, but you get the idea.

John


Thank you for your reply and I appreciate there are a huge amount of variables around the decision to regrass.


At what point do you think a surface starts to really alter in terms of composition based on management techniques and the mutation/hybrid colonization takes place? Would regrassing frequently possibly prevent this scenario which potentially leads to a site and management specific surface that is best adapted? Think Oakmont Poa and what has taken place there

I think nutrient management has the most profound impact on species composition. Historical methods of nutrient management undoubtedly favors Poa annua invasion and proliferation. It doesn't matter what seed is planted when standard management practices are designed to encourage the undesirable species.


I have seen immediate invasion of Poa annua into brand new greens. It only gets worse from there if one continues down the same path. Sure interseeding helps, but to me that's putting a band-aid on a broken leg.

Jihn


I understand and agree around poa invasion and how inputs can affect it


I was more curious about your thought on colonization of bents etc after time under intensive management? Most commonly seen on older greens, we have a myriad of different patches of browntops that have evolved over time. I am more wondering how long that process takes to start occurring

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